Some Southern Baptists Not Thrilled with Duck Dynasty's friendship with some SBCers

Hold the phone.

Baptismal regeneration?

According to some in the SBC, some of their fellow leaders have been a little too quick to befriend and ask the Duck Dynasty guys to speak at SBC events… given that some of the clan are elders… in a CHURCH OF CHRIST.

So… here’s a expose… trying to determine the real beliefs of the Duck Dynasty guys on the topic of Baptismal Regeneration.  Here’s a short excerpt from a blog that’s tackling this ‘scandal’ head on.

I wrote A Few More Things You Should Know About Duck Dynasty when I found out these fellows belonged to a Church of Christ – White’s Ferry Road Church of Christ. That post documents a ministry from White’s Ferry, that trains people in evangelism, explaining that people should be re-baptized for salvation who claim, “I am already saved; I was saved when I believed in Jesus” or “Were baptized to show [they] had already been saved.”

I have had several conversations – online and off – on this topic. Several of my fellow Southern Baptists have concerns since the Duck Dynasty folks are publicly partnering with some Southern Baptists. Oddly, there has also been a large silence about what these folks believe about baptism, but there have been inquiries.

So, in an effort to clarify what White’s Ferry believes about baptism, Elder Mike Kellett recently addressed the issue due to many of those inquiries. Also, note that Duck Commander Phil Robertson and his oldest son, Alan, are Kellett’s fellow elders.

To begin, I’d like to share a few resources on baptism before I share a link to Mr. Kellett’s sermon…

And so the blog post goes… with quite the expose… quite a bit of research.

On Duck Dynasty.

Seriously.

Should the Duck Dynasty guys be speaking anywhere near an SBC church?  I don’t know.  Can’t say that I really care.

But some do… and that’s ok.

I’ll just watch the short video testimony of Willie (which I thought was quite impressive, actually), and catch an occasional episode just for fun.

And I’m fine with that.

What do you think?  Big deal, or are you crying foul?

(see what I did there?)

Leave a comment.

Todd

213 Comments

  • JDG May 15, 2013 Reply

    Ok, let’s see…Christian moral being flashed all over my television screen or flip the channel to another show featuring serial killers and dead bodies? I think I will take the first. And with clean comedy as a bonus.

    Then to realize that no speaker I ever invite on our stage will be 110% in agreement with our theology, yet the value of their faith story is priceless. So, invite them in and ask them to openly discuss differences, but call them such; or ask them to steer clear and share what makes them fellow believers.

    News flash…this is great practice for what Heaven will be like.

    I for one, am proud of the stance these guys have taken.

    • Lynn Alan August 25, 2013 Reply

      What an interesting comment you have made: “no speaker I ever invite on our stage will be 110% in agreement with our theology.” I would think that if we go to the Scriptures for our doctrine (not opinions) that all would be in agreement. Is it possible that you actually believe there is more than one truth?

      • Ryan November 18, 2013 Reply

        God, through His Word (the Bible) is the only authority for the church. (Matthew 28:18) That is where the church of Christ gets it’s theology. (2 Timothy 3:16) The reason why there will not be an agreement with outside speakers is because people twist or just don’t believe what the Scriptures clearly say. (2Peter 2:1) Poor study habit doesn’t excuse us for we are commanded to study/be diligent! (2 Timothy 2:15)

        There is only one truth. Ephesians 4:5 & John 17:17

        • Lynn Alan November 18, 2013 Reply

          More likely the reason there is some disagreement on some things pertaining to opinion within the church is that the church, unlike denominations, does not have a written creed/rulebook to follow except for the Scriptures themselves. The church gets herself into trouble by trying to bind opinions as doctrine.

          • Ryan November 20, 2013

            That is why we must RIGHTLy divide the Word. We must study it. This is not opinion.

      • zac December 20, 2013 Reply

        There are two different kinds of truth. The one I love is Jesus. The rest are lesser forms of truth. They are based on our understanding of eternal principles and the scriptures. It’s possible to be 100% correct in your doctrine and out of touch with what the Father is doing. God likes to eat sacred cows.

        • Lynn Alan December 23, 2013 Reply

          Really??? I always understood truth to be truth and nothing else. According to the Scriptures there is one and only one truth–no such thing as lesser forms of truth. Jesus said in the Lord’s prayer: “Sanctify them in the truth; Thy word is truth” (John 17:17).

    • Mark December 24, 2013 Reply

      Excellent point! By the way, I am Eastern Orthodox. We view that all Protestants and Roman Catholics have strayed from the original faith imparted by Jesus to the Apostles. And yet, I welcome Phil Robertson whole heartedly! He is pointing people to Jesus Christ, who alone can save people. Shame on us Christians if we judge one another over doctrinal points that are above our pay grade. Let us turn to Jesus in earnest devotion. He will save us. God bless Phil Robertson and his courage for Christ!

    • Thomas December 30, 2013 Reply

      In the early 1800s it was believed that the King James bible was without error, its not. King James is a translation of a translation, not of the original new testament. This lead to misconceptions and added interpretations not intended in early gospels. These misconceptions still prevail today, one’s Truth can be 100% wrong. Study for yourself by yourself without use of commentary or recognized translation books can lead to perpetuation of bad doctrine on any bible subject. Therefore you are correct in saying not everyone will be 110 % correct and in agreement. I welcome your breath of Christian inclusion.

      • Ed January 1, 2014 Reply

        So have you studied the koine greek codexes and fragments from the first century? If you’re hardcore for accuracy, you’ll also want to be familiar with hermeneutics and judgmental heuristics so you can be sure you’re not coloring your reading with biases. Even then you’ll run into passages that require many years of study and reflection, plus a Christian walk to get a fuller richer understanding. It’s too easy to assume understanding when you follow a formula or script and then bully others with platitudes about avoiding false doctrine etc.

        • thomas January 1, 2014 Reply

          Dear Non-Christian friend ,I did not mean to offend, I stated that one could be 100% wrong on doctrine. That includes me, I forgive you for falsely accusing me. I pray God will open your heart to him and heal you of your anger.

  • Mike Kjergaard May 15, 2013 Reply

    As a Church of Christ minister (actually I’m in the Independent Church of Christ/Christian Church branch of the Restoration Movement – but we have similar beliefs), I grow weary of the term “baptismal regeneration.” It seems that those who use it to describe our teaching either do not understand the term, or they have taken examples from the right-wing extremists among us (and the Baptists have their fair share of those too).

    While it is true that we teach that baptism is part of the normative pattern of salvation in the N.T. (along with faith and repentance), we believe that it is the blood of Christ that cleanses sin.

    People outside of our movement have dismissed the sinner’s prayer in recent years (e.g. Frank Viola, Francis Chan, David Platt, Scot McKnight). G.R. Beasley-Murray (a Baptist) agrees with our position.

    The guys from Duck Dynasty have been an example of the Christian faith to millions of viewers. Can’t we simply celebrate that?

    • KASSIE July 15, 2013 Reply

      AMEN!! its funny how the SBC is always point a finger at us about several doctrinal differences and accusing us of being the bad guys and they are doing the same thing! Phil Robertson is going to make a huge difference in the way the others look at us Christ Followers.

  • Gary Sweeten May 15, 2013 Reply

    So much of the public discussion among Christians is “inside baseball” and not understandable from an outsider’s view. I realized long ago that most of my SBC rearing put barriers between God and me before, during and after I was saved, 65 years ago. I wish pastors would stop arguing over the arcane rules and get outside of their own baseball game once in a while.

    • The Messenger November 18, 2013 Reply

      Sir, there is nothing arcane about what the bible teaches. Saying such is equivalent to saying Christ is outdated. But He Is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. (Hebrews13:8)

      Not to mention the Bible is the living Word. (Hebrews 4:12)

  • kjc May 15, 2013 Reply

    Here we go, another fishermen fighting over the bait story again, I am a Church of God preacher, most ya’ll do not even hold my thoughts on the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, but yet I follow and read and respond to your posts because I can learn allot. Come on folks the Duck Dynasty people are good people I love the show I think its doing a good job of promoting a positive Christian view point, they Pray, the lift up family men married to one wife, they hunt, they are good people. I am asking for those who seek a war with these fine folks to please do not do it, we are almost professional at not getting along in the body of Christ, we all working for the same goal to lead others to Christ. Duck Dynasty got Faith, Guns and Ducks and that’s fine with me.

    • Lynn Alan August 29, 2013 Reply

      kjc you believe in baptism of the Holy Spirit, yes? Do you also submit to baptism in water?

  • Jeff Borden May 15, 2013 Reply

    I think what I find appalling, is the attitude that says “these guys don’t believe like us, so we have to distance ourselves and claim non-partnership status…” Craziness. No wonder the world has difficulty believing the testimony of “Christians.” We really enjoy our sanctimonious quibbling over tomato / tamahto. Jesus said “they” would know us by our love. No wonder… I think it was John (1 John 4) who said something to the effect of Christians who don’t love Christians aren’t Christians. Perhaps that interpretation or paraphrase is a gross exaggeration, then again, maybe it’s not.

    • Gary Sweeten May 15, 2013 Reply

      Amen!

      • jay September 21, 2013 Reply

        I am a Church of Christ member and do believe baptism is one of the steps to being saved,however it is about verse interpetation as well , the baptists interpetit it a diff way than we do,but we are very similar in other ways of worship and belief.I personally accept and love baptists as my Christian brothers,we should accept out interpitation differances and all work together to bring people to Christ!

        • Lynn Alan September 22, 2013 Reply

          Jesus said that the truth is what will set a person free (Jn 8:32), He also said that the word of God (i.e. Scripture) is truth (Jn 17:17). There is only one way to salvation, people may twist Scripture and claim that this is their interpretation, but the way to salvation is so simple man must deliberately misinterpret what the Scriptures say in order to create confusion. Jesus clearly stated that “he who has believed and has been immersed shall be saved” (Mk 16:16). Peter did not tell the Jewish believers at the feast of Pentecost that their belief had saved them and nothing was necessary for them to do, but rather he said (to people who already believed with the total being) “repent, and let each of you be immersed by the authority of Jesus Christ unto the forgiveness of your sins” (Acts 2:38). According to verse 41 these believers took Peter at his word, for the historian Luke says, “those who had received his word were immersed; and there were added that day about three thousand.” What were they added to? According to Mark 16, the saved; according to Acts 2:38, the forgiven.
          Paul declares justification is by the blood of Jesus (Romans 5:9). How does one contact that blood in order to become justified? The Scriptures clearly say it was shed in His death, that being so we must contact that blood in His death. By which Paul clearly states that we who have been immersed were immersed into His death (Rom. 6:3) and our new life does not even begin until after we have been raised up from that immersion.
          My fellow Christians are those who have been united into Christ by immersion and thus have forgiveness of all sins and so long as I continue in the Light His blood continually cleanses me. There is no other way into Christ!

          • jay September 22, 2013

            i agree and have been baptized myself,however it is not up to us as men to judge others or to decide who is or isnt saved……that is arrogance……..All this is up to our Lord Jesus Christ to decide!So for either church to be snooty toward each other is wrong in itself

          • Lynn Alan September 22, 2013

            Jesus said, “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment” (John 7:24). What does this mean? If a person chooses to not be obedient to the word of God it is not I who am judging but the words of Christ Himself. I can only regard one as saved who has obeyed the word of God, but that is as far as I can judge righteously for even after one has obeyed I do not know their heart.
            It is clear to me that sincerity only will not save a person no matter how honest they are in their belief that Jesus is the Christ…belief alone will not bring about forgiveness of sins. Paul was very clear when he said at the beginning and again at the end of his letter to the Christians in Rome that “obedience of faith” not faith alone saves.

          • James Freymuth February 4, 2014

            Hmmmm….So the thief next to Jesus didn’t go to heaven? Baptism is an act of obedience. Obeying God’s commands are acts of good works, that we do FROM our salvation. Not FOR our salvation. We are not saved by works. We are saved by faith. Faith that isn’t even from us. Even the faith that saves us is a gift of God. (Ephesians 2:8, Romans 12:3) You are preaching works salvation. If that is what the Robertsons teach, I’ll just have to stop watching the show.

          • James Freymuth February 4, 2014

            Don’t get me wrong. I am a baptized believer, who will confirm that an aspiration to holy living and a desire to be obedient in baptism is ALWAYS a result of true conversion. But Lynn, your interpretation of the reference to the “obedience of salvation”, found in Romans 1 and Romans 16, is simply inaccurate. Those are both references to the aspiration to holy living and the resulting obedience, that comes FROM salvation. I’m not here to argue my point. I’m here because I’m concerned by what you’ve written. You even went so far as to say, “and so long as I continue in the Light His blood continually cleanses me”. That leaves the implication that you are continuing to try to do works, for your salvation, and that you may lose it, if you don’t. That even sounds cultish. If we were playing “Name That Doctrine” and I had to guess, I’d even say it sounds like LDS doctrine. Very concerning. I suggest that you dig DEEP into the book of Galatians. Do a HEAVY word by word study of the Greek. Galatians would be a great place for you to start. Then go back to Romans.

  • I was going to comment on the tired baptismal regeneration comment – but it is unnecessary and love the comments so will only add – amen to them

  • Al LaRue May 15, 2013 Reply

    Praise the Lord and pass the Duck calls!

  • Thomas May 15, 2013 Reply

    I’m a major fan of Duck Dynasty — MAJOR. But I’m a bigger fan of Truth and Sound Theology. Indeed some Church of Christ folks DO believe that baptism is a requirement for salvation — not as a “part” but as an actual requirement. I don’t doubt that others within the denomination might not see it as a requirement at all. I can also show you other variances among Baptists regarding repentance, baptism and election. What I see as a danger here is the idea that being a TV celebrity qualifies one to be a religious celebrity as well. If I were to invite someone to speak to the men at my church, I’d be more interested in doctrinal alignment than public celebrity or notoriety. If you believe an act of man like baptism or joining a church or keeping a list of rules is required to receive God’s grace of salvation, then I may enjoy your show, appreciate your values, want to indeed go hunting with you — but, you aren’t going to speak at my guy’s outreach events. If that makes me narrow-minded, well…I’ve been called worse.

    • H. Simmons November 11, 2013 Reply

      The church of Christ is not a denomination.

      • Grandpafillups March 22, 2014 Reply

        Oh yes it is. It’s the church that still continues in the Apostolic doctrine that is not a denomination. The sign men put on a church lawn does not mean it really belongs to Jesus or that it truly bears his name.

        • C. Kay July 24, 2014 Reply

          Thank you Grandpafillups. I think it is admirable to try to worship and believe EXACTLY by the Bible, but as it has been said above the KJV is a human translation. Maybe something important was lost or misunderstood. The Church of Christ is a denomination, whether or not they want to be, and not an uninterrupted continuance of the first new testament church. I am a member of the Church of Christ, but have recently began a search for a church where I feel Christ is worshipped and not just a weekly bashing of other denominations. I love the Robertsons and their example to the world. I think until we all learn to put God first, love our neighbor and forgive each other we have more to worry about than the sign in front of a building.

  • Tom May 15, 2013 Reply

    The issue of salvation cannot be debated. Salvation is experienced by trusting Jesus alone ( book of Galatians). If SB’ers don’t like the Duckers theology they are really not going to like what it cost to get one of them at an event… They are not cheap. Maybe SB ought to invest in something more significant.

    • Lynn Alan December 8, 2013 Reply

      I do not believe I have ever read anywhere in Paul’s letter to the Galatian churches that “salvation is experienced by trusting Jesus alone.” Perhaps you have a different translation, Tom. If not then perhaps you could give the Scripture citation where this is found in Galatians.
      One thing I do know about the Galatian letter is that in it is found one of the two Scriptures in which the Holy Spirit, through Paul, makes it known how to get into Christ where all spritual blessings are (Ephesians 1:7). This would include love, faith, the promise of life, God’s grace, and salvation. All these blessings are found “in Christ” and every person able to decide between right and wrong is either in Christ or outside of Christ (saved or lost).
      So what do the Scriptures say?
      “And the grace of our Lord was more abundant, with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 1:14)
      “For those that have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 3:13).
      “Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life in Christ Jesus” (2 Timothy 1:1).
      “Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity” (2 Timothy 1:8-9).
      “For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory” (2 Timothy 2:10).
      How does one step into Christ and thereby contact Christ’s blood?
      Galatian 3:27 and Romans 6:3-4 are the only two passages that speak of someone’s getting “into Christ.”

      • Ed January 1, 2014 Reply

        Ah I see a member of the proof text brigade is here! woohoo! We were so ignorant before you showed up. Thanks for working out your inner dis-satisfaction by giving us the distilled kernels that prove your inability to have a conversation and for unmasking your lack of erudition. Do you have formulas for everything in your life? Your probably awesome to live with.

        • Lynn Alan January 1, 2014 Reply

          And you Ed would be what?
          I regard the New Testament to be my sole authority on matters religious.

    • Grandpafillups March 22, 2014 Reply

      Galatians was written to people who were already saved. Although faith is an intricate part no one is saved by faith alone for we are saved by many things found written in the bible.

  • Chuck May 29, 2013 Reply

    Just more cult of celebrity stuff.

  • Dave June 11, 2013 Reply

    Correct me if I am wrong, but I have been told by Church of Christ pastors that each individual Church of Christ gets to decide their own position on the role of baptism in salvation. Some teach that it is baptism that saves you and some teach that baptism is a public statement that you have been saved through faith in Christ. I have visited multiple Church of Christ websites and have found it both ways.

    • Lynn Alan September 6, 2013 Reply

      Dave,
      By church of Christ pastor I assume you mean the evangelist or preacher? The term pastor in the New Testament is a reference to the same office as elder or bishop – all three terms refer to the same group of men in a congregation. As to your remark about each individual congregation deciding their own position on baptism, this is not true. Each congregation is autonomous having no earthly headquarters, but our authority is based upon what the Scriptures teach not what man wants to believe and we are not authorized to pick and choose which doctrines we will or will not teach.
      It has been known for entire congregations of the Lord’s church to fall into apostasy – the book of Revelation opens with “letters” to the seven churches of Asia in which Jesus warns several that He will remove their candlestick if they do not repent.apk

      • Paul Compston November 25, 2013 Reply

        For several years, I attended a local Church of Christ, and as to “we are not authorized to pick and choose which doctrines we will teach” I found if the Bible went along with their beliefs, then it was, “we go strictly by the Bible”, but if it didn’t, they would say, “well, this it what the Bible means.”

        • Grandpafillups March 22, 2014 Reply

          The problem is that your denomination does not strictly go by the bible. I wish it did. Instead you believe in a god that used to, doesn’t now, but will later. Even sadder is the teaching that ” The Age of Miracles is Over”.

          That sir is to believe in a has been God! If so why pray to Him or serve Him?

          Also not to use musical instruments in a church service is not supported anywhere in the bible. Those filled with the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost were all Jews. They knew how to praise The. Lord on all manner of instruments. There is no record of them not continuing to do so. To say that they did is to add to scripture.

          • Lynn Alan March 23, 2014

            In all of Scripture, both the Old & New, faith never stands alone. Acceptable faith always demonstrates itself by total obedience. Noah was saved by faith after he obeyed all the commands of God. Abraham demonstrated his faith by obedience to all God commanded and it was “credited to him as righteousness.” The walls of Jericho fell by faith because the Israelites obeyed the commands of God.
            Paul says the Galatians (by extension all Christians) became “sons of God by the faith in Christ Jesus” (the article in the Greek shows this is not a reference to ones personal faith). The next verse (Gal. 3:27) gives the reason why verse 26 is true — because you were immersed into Christ.
            Water immersion is the only immersion (baptism) commanded in the commission of Jesus Christ (Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16). It is the same command to Jew and Gentile alike.
            Baptism of the Holy Spirit was a promise and was administered directly from heaven by Jesus Christ. It also was not bestowed on all Christians. At the feast of Pentecost only the apostles were baptized by the Holy Spirit giving them everything they needed to be ambassadors of Christ. The first Gentiles to be extended the gift of salvation were baptized in the Holy Spirit so that the Jews would accept them. If one reads Acts 11, where Peter explains what happened at the house of Cornelius “in order from the beginning,” it will be noticed that the Holy Spirit overwhelmed the Gentiles before they heard “words by which [they would] be saved” (Acts 11:14).
            A study of “the gift of the Holy Spirit” in the book of Acts demonstrates that Christians received it by the laying on of the apostles hands (or directly from heaven as with the apostles and the house of Cornelius). The gift was manifested by miraculous manifestations (like those described in 1 Corinthians 12-14). These gifts were necessary for the infant church because they did not have the completed word of God. There are indications that these gifts were ending by the time of Jerusalem’s destruction in AD 70.

          • Toni September 16, 2014

            Read your bible. Make music with your heart, not with musical instruments. Do not add or take away from the Bible! Amen!

          • LYNN ALAN September 17, 2014

            Grandpafillups can you find anywhere in the New Testament where Christians used instruments in worship or were commanded to use them in worship. Since we are no longer under the Old Covenant the use of Old Testament passages to show instruments in worship is to not properly divide the Scriptures. Also, the use of Revelation as proof is also incorrect due to the fact that the Apocalypse is a vision and revealed in signs, plus what may or may not occur in heaven has no bearing on the present.

      • David Lambert December 19, 2013 Reply

        Lynn Alan amen well written and true.

  • Rachel August 13, 2013 Reply

    So, I guess my question to the Church of Christ minister and the men of Duck Dynasty is “Am I saved if I have never been baptized?”
    God gives us a clear and stern warning when we add or take away from His word. So, yes, while the family stands for values that I hold dear to my heart, there’s danger in what they are doing. This theology causes a person who has not been baptized to question their salvation and there is no need for that since scripture is clear on what is needed.
    I believe baptism is a step in obedience but not a precursor to salvation. Christ’s blood, alone, is enough to save me from hell. Those who are saved should never discount the blood to the level that it needs assistance or cannot save on its own.
    This is not an issue about “getting along” with other faiths or” looking at the good of the show”, it’s about truth…black and white people, God’s black and white.

    • Mike Kjergaard August 13, 2013 Reply

      In Romans 6:4, does newness of life come before or after baptism?
      In Mark 16:16, does salvation come before or after baptism?
      In Acts 22:16, are Saul’s sins washed away before or after baptism?
      In 1 Peter 3:21, does salvation occur before or after baptism?
      In Acts 2:38, is remission of sins promised before or after baptism?

      I could go on, but I don’t want to be a jerk about it. Rachel, let me simply encourage you to look at the Scriptures and allow the conversion experiences to speak for themselves. Be sure to look at the accounts of conversion that occur AFTER Christ’s resurrection (the thief on the cross, for example, lived & died under the old covenant, and thus was not required to obey the new covenant terms of pardon).

      • Stephanie August 14, 2013 Reply

        Romans 6:4 Is Romans 6 about salvation or is it about dying to sin and not using grace a license to sin? Does newness of life come from being set free from sin because we were crucified with Christ or from water baptism?

        Mark 16:16 Are those who are not baptised condemned?

        Acts 22:16 Did Saul wash his sins away in baptism, or did the blood of Jesus wash his sins away on the cross?

        1 Peter 3:21 Does water baptism save or does the resurrection of Jesus Christ save?

        Acts 2:38 Does repentance bring forgiveness of sins or does water baptism bring forgiveness of sins?

        Romans 4,
        3….“Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

        9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

        22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

        If Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness, and Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness, and this faith was credited to him BEFORE he was circumsized, then my righteousness was credited to my account because of my belief and faith in God BEFORE my baptism. And I received baptism as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that I had by faith while I was still unbaptised.

      • Aaron August 20, 2013 Reply

        Any response?

        • Mike Kjergaard August 20, 2013 Reply

          A response would likely be an exercise in futility. Comment threads, Facebook posts, and Tweets are usually poor places for ongoing and productive discussions regarding doctrinal differences. When there is a predisposition to reject out-of-hand any Scriptures that seem to challenge a long-held belief, (even if it requires an interpretation that makes the verses mean the very opposite of what they actually say), then we have reached the point of diminishing returns. It’s obvious that we view these Scriptures through very different theological lenses. But you might be interested in this little clip from Francis Chan (a guy who is NOT from the Church of Christ). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXuIvievIA0

          • Grace August 20, 2013

            Seems clear t me:

            Luk 7:50 Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

            Jhn 1:7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe.

            Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

            Jhn 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

            Jhn 9:38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

            Jhn 11:40 Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”

            Jhn 20:31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

            Act 16:31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved–you and your household.”

            Act 16:34 The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God–he and his whole household.

            Act 19:4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”

            Rom 3:22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

            Rom 4:11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

            Rom 4:24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness–for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

            Rom 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

            1Cr 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

            Gal 3:22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

            1Ti 1:16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

            1Ti 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

            Rom 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

            Rom 5:10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

            Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–

            2Ti 1:9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life–not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

            Hbr 10:39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

    • dave August 23, 2013 Reply

      Hi Rachel, just curious as to your comment: “I believe baptism is a step in obedience but not a precursor to salvation”. Why do you think Peter was incorrect in Acts 2 when they people asked him what they needed to do in order to be saved? He didnt tell them to just believe but to repent and be baptized. Why do you disagree with him and by what authority do you give an other answer to their question?

      • Kelly November 16, 2013 Reply

        Hi, Dave, I was just curious as to why you think Paul and Silas were incorrect when asked by the Phillipian jailer in Acts 16:30 what he must do to be saved? 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Baptism only came AFTER they were saved. COC’s entire doctrine is based on about 6 or 7 verses that they have misinterpreted. The Bible does not contradict itself. Seek the true meaning of these particular scriptures. I got caught up in a COC, and even though they are very loving people, and I don’t doubt their love for Christ, their teachings are dangerous.

        • Lynn Alan December 23, 2013 Reply

          As is the case with most people who believe that one is saved at the point of belief they turn to Acts 16:30 for support but does it support this idea??? The fact that faith or belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God is the foundation upon which salvation is based. Where in the account of the jailer do you find that it says he was baptized after he was saved–it is not there unless you read it into the text yourself. When the jailer was told that he would have to believe he at that point knew nothing about Jesus thus the account says: “and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household.” AND they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. AND he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, HAVING BELIEVED in God with his whole household”
          (Act 16:30-34)
          Notice the word “AND” that indicates a continuation of the story. It is not until verse 34 after the Jailer and his household had been immersed that the text informs us that they had BELIEVED IN GOD. According to Acts 22:16, as Paul is retelling of his conversion, the act of immersion is identical to the calling upon the name of the Lord.

    • Grandpafillups March 22, 2014 Reply

      The epistles were written to people already saved. Jesus Himself submitted to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness. Later He gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, Those Keys unlocked heavens door. So what did he preach since he and only he was the first preacher to preach after Jesus death and resurrection?

      Mark 16:16
      16 He that believeth AND IS BAPTIZED shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

      John 3:5
      Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

      Acts 2:38
      Then Peter said unto them, REPENT, and be BAPTIZED every one of you in the NAME of Jesus Christ for the REMISSION of SINS, and ye shall receive the GIFT of the Holy Ghost.

      1 Peter 3:21
      The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

  • Faith Alone August 17, 2013 Reply

    Baptismal Regeneration: The heretical doctrine that limits a mighty, sovereign, God’s power to the act of a sinful man.
    “If this be your teaching, that regeneration goes with baptism, I say it looks like the teaching of a spurious Church, which has craftily invented a mechanical salvation to deceive ignorant, sensual, and grovelling minds, rather than the teaching of the most profoundly spiritual of all teachers, who rebuked Scribes and Pharisees for regarding outward rites as more important than inward grace.” ~Charles Spurgeon

    • Grandpafillups March 22, 2014 Reply

      1 Peter 3:21
      The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

  • Lynn Alan August 21, 2013 Reply

    Baptismal regeneration? I belong to Christ’s church and I have never heard such taught from the Scriptures. There is nothing about the water that causes regeneration. What the Scriptures do teach, that those who are crying faith only do not comprehend, is that in baptism the penitent believer contacts the cleansing blood of Jesus. How do I know this? Paul plainly declares in Romans chapter 6 beginning in verse 3: “do yo not know that all who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?” [Didn’t Jesus shed His blood when put to death upon the cross?] “Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.”
    It is inconceivable that anyone would teach that we are saved before we die to sin and before rising to walk a new path – both of these happen after baptism. READ THE VERSES AGAIN I DID NOT SAY THIS PAUL DID THROUGH INSPIRATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    • Stephanie August 24, 2013 Reply

      It is inconceivable that anyone would teach that a wicked, unsaved, sinner, with a deceitful, disobedient, unregenerate, heart of stone, and desires of the flesh, could possibly step foot into a baptismal in order to please a God whom no sinner would seek after.

      BTW, the verses you listed in Romans 6 are imagery, used to get us to see that we are not to use grace as license to sin i.e. we do not go on sinning just because we are under grace. Paul said, don’t live in the flesh, but live life in the Spirit. The theme of Romans 6 is that the natural man (flesh) is dead to sin, but the new man (new creation) is alive to God. Not a slave to sin, but a slave to Christ. Context, context, context! Verse, chapter, book, whole Bible. Romans 6 does not teach salvation through baptism.

      • Lynn Alan August 25, 2013 Reply

        You have missed the entire theme of the book of Romans. “I am not ashamed of the gospel for it is the power of God unto salvation to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”
        So, what is the gospel? And how do we obey it – symbolically or in reality?

  • Randy August 21, 2013 Reply

    I am Baptist and firmly believe in salvation then Baptism. Being taught and believing you ask for forgiveness of your sins and ask god to come into your heart. Baptism comes after salvation and is belief that it washs your sins away.
    John 3:16
    For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not parish but have everlasting life.
    My belief and understanding is baptism is not necessary to enter heaven. Salvation is the answer.

    • Will August 22, 2013 Reply

      No where in scripture will you find that someone got saved by asking Jesus into his heart. It is not authorized and it is man made doctrine. WE are saved by the Gospel (1 Corinthians 15) through baptism (Romans 6), yet a person still needs to Believe (Mark 16:16) Repent (Acts 2:38) Confess (Romans 10:9) And if you say that baptism does not save (1 Peter 3:21). BTW, Acts 2:38 says “for the remission of sins”. Then what happens after baptism? You receive the gift of the Holy Spirit! What do you think (2 Thessalonians 1:8) means? Vengeance will be taken on those “that know not God, and OBEY not the GOSPEL of our Lord Jesus Christ:”. What Gospel do you think he is talking about. Well you can find out what the gospel is by reading (1 Corinthians 15) “I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also you have received, and wherein you stand; By which also you are SAVED, if you keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ DIED for our sins according to the scriptures; And that He was BURIED, and that He ROSE AGAIN the third day according to the scriptures:”. But you may ask, “how can a person OBEY the gospel?” that is where (Romans 6) comes in. “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized INTO HIS DEATH? Therefore WE ARE BURIED with Him by baptism INTO DEATH: that like as Christ was RAISED UP FROM THE DEAD by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the LIKENESS OF HIS DEATH, we shall be also in the LIKENESS OF HIS RESURRECTION: Knowing this, THAT OUR OLD MAN WAS CRUCIFIED with Him, *(ALSO SEE GALATIANS 2:20)*, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have OBEYED from the heart that form of doctrine which was DELIVERED you. I grew up in the Baptist church, and I left. Please, I urge you to study. NO Where in scripture does Jesus authorize saying a Prayer to be saved. If you care, you will see. Ask yourself these questions: 1) What were the disciples teaching? 2) What was there message concerning Salvation?

      • Lynn Alan August 22, 2013 Reply

        Exactly right…that is what the Holy Spirit revealed to the apostles and they taught this same thing. Two points are always brought up by those who contend that immersion in water is not necessary. First it will be said, “What about the thief? He was not baptized was he? In response, how do you know? Since we only meet him hanging upon the cross next to Jesus, it is possible he was baptized by John the Immerser at some time prior to this. Also, whether he was immersed or not is irrelevant at this time because the Old Covenant was still in effect and while on earth the Lord had the authority to forgive. It was at the first feast of Pentecost after Jesus’ resurrection that His will (testament) was probated.
        Secondly, it is pointed out that Paul said he was not sent to baptize and this is proof of its non-necessity. Yet this is true of everyone who follows the commission of the Christ to go and teach (or preach) the gospel. Those who respond to the gospel will be immersed for the forgiveness of their sins.

    • Ty November 16, 2013 Reply

      So why is baptism even mentioned in the Bible if it is not necessary?

    • AD November 29, 2013 Reply

      “I am Baptist . . .” Isn’t that the real problem?

      I am a Christian, and a Christian only.

    • Lynn Alan November 29, 2013 Reply

      I am curious Randy if you, like the Bereans in Acts 17, have seached the Scriptures to determine ifwhat you are told is true. Or do you believe Baptist doctrine because this is how you were raised?
      When i asked my Pastor where and when the Baptist Church started he responded to my question
      as if I were a nuisance. First out of his mouth was “John the Baptist started the Baptist Church.” Well duh, was my wife and I’ s response – but where is that in the Bible? His response, “Matthew 3,” and the man could not rush us out of his office fast enough. Needless to say Matthew 3 has nothing in it about the start of the Baptist Church or any other church. So I, with my wife, began to study the Scriptures without any preconceived ideas.
      Amazingly, we found our pet Scripture for grace through faith alone was taken out of context. Because when one reads the entire 2nd Chapter of Ephesians the works being referenced are “works of the Law” not any and every work. In fact Paul speaks of the Romans “obedience of faith” twice. One thought to ponder:
      “For after all it is just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and TO THOSE WHO DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction….” (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9a, emphasis added).
      Do you know what the Gospel is?
      Have you obeyed the Gospel?
      It took my wife and I 6 and a half months of Scripture reading to discover what we needed to do to get right with God. That is why we identify with the church of Christ now.apk

      • The Dropout December 23, 2013 Reply

        Mr. Alan tell all these people how you get scriptural authority.
        According to Thomas B. Warren and his study in logic it is:
        Direct Command
        Apostolic Example
        Necessary Inference
        By applying this Study, true meaning becomes so simple and clear.
        Odd that this is never or seldom preached to the congregation
        but is reserved for preacher school.
        Seems like you Baptist have your own inspired teachers also.

  • Stephanie August 23, 2013 Reply

    Jesus is the Gospel. We are saved the moment we realize that we are wretched sinners who have been living in disobedience to God’s Holy standards and deserve everlasting torment and punishment in hell because of this and that there is nothing we can do ourselves to fix this condition or to save ourselves and that Jesus Christ was born, lived a perfect life, was crucified on the cross where he took God’s wrath, the punishment we all deserve, and he rose from the grave on the third day which showed that God had accepted Christ’s sacrifice for our sins. Now, the moment we believe this message, we are saved, because we know in our heart/soul that this message is true and our heart/soul cries out to God in repentance and confession and God says “not guilty” and He imputes the righteousness of Christ to us and we are forgiven of all of our sins, past, present, and future, not because of our righteousness, but because of Christ’s righteousness. Sometimes our belief/conversion is verbally spoken out loud and confessed, maybe even in a spoken prayer at the time of our conversion, but it does not need to be said with actual words because the mouth merely confesses what the heart/soul speaks and God knows the heart of every man. We then follow God with an obedient heart and are baptised, which just like in the ancient Jewish tradition of mikveh, symbolizes our new identity in Christ of going from a state of impurity to purity, and of having our sins washed away by the blood of Christ, and of making a public display and pronouncement of our conversion unto Christ, and our newness of life. The Holy Spirit comes to dwell in us at the time of our belief/conversion. In fact, the Holy Spirit was already working in us to open our eyes and circumsize our hearts unto God before we were even able to believe the message of the gospel because we are so wicked by nature that none of us would seek out God or come to belief on our own. God knows this. What is the purpose of the law? To show us our sin, to convict and condemn us, to show us we are sinners in need of a Savior, to lead us to salvation in Christ. What is baptism, a command of God, which makes it a law. The Bible says we are not saved by the law, if we put ourselves under the law for our salvation, which means ANY law, that we are then obligated to keep the WHOLE law 100% and if we stumble and break so much as 1 of God’s commandments we are damned. We are not saved by the law, we do not live by the law. We are new covenant Christians, we are under grace not the law, we live life not by the law, but we live life in the Spirit, by the Spirit, (Galatians 5). We LOVE, why do we love, because if we LOVE, we have fulfilled ALL of the commandments of God! So, do not let yourselves be bound again by a yoke of slavery by those who would have you believe that any act of obedience is required for your salvation.

    Galatians 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. 10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

    Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

    Galatians 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

    • Lynn Alan August 23, 2013 Reply

      You are professing that we have salvation before we are washed by the blood of Jesus, how can this be?

      • Stephanie August 24, 2013 Reply

        Did you bathe in the blood of Christ when he poured his blood out for you on the cross? I think not. Have you minced my words? Jesus, our high priest, became the mercy seat, the propitiation, when he sprinkled his own blood, as the atonement for our sins. God accepted this atonement because Christ was raised from the dead. Do you believe that the propitiation was made for your sins and accepted by God or not? Do you believe that Christ received the wrath that you deserve or not? Do you believe that your sins have been forgiven or not? Do you agree with God or not? I am professing that my salvation was bought and paid for with the blood of Christ over 2000 years ago on the cross. My salvation was not bought and paid for several years ago in the baptismal.

        • SavedByGrace December 25, 2013 Reply

          Stephanie: Please indicate what you perceive as the lie in Acts 2:
          38 And Peter said to them, 1.) “Repent and 2) be immersed 3) every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ 4) FOR the forgiveness of your sins, and 5) you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
          39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our GOD calls to Himself.”
          40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to EXHORT them, saying, “6) Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”
          41 So 7) those who received his word were 8) immersed, and there were 9) added that day about three thousand souls.
          47 praising GOD and having favor with all the people. And 10) the Lord added to their number day by day 11) those who were being saved.
          Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
          26 FOR 12) in Christ Jesus you are all sons of GOD, through faith.
          27 FOR 13) as many of you as were immersed into Christ 14) have put on Christ.

        • Lynn Alan January 1, 2014 Reply

          Bought and paid for 2000 years ago no doubt about it, accepted by me only recently by obedience to the gospel. Paul very clearly told the Thessalonians that “those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus…will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power” (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9).

    • dave August 23, 2013 Reply

      Stephanie, you said “We are saved the moment we realize that we are wretched sinners who have been living in disobedience to God’s Holy standards”. Why do you think Peter lied to the people in Acts 2 when they asked him what they needed to do in order to be saved? He told them to repent and be baptized (they already believed). Why do you think he lied and by what authority do you say it?

      • Stephanie August 23, 2013 Reply

        Why do you wrest the scriptures? Who is the liar? The careful reader will notice that the words “to be saved” are not found in Acts 2:37.

        Why do you ask where I get my authority? We are not in church.

        • dave August 24, 2013 Reply

          I asked because you obviously think Peter was wrong when he told them they to repent and be baptized. In other words, if the crowd had asked YOU what they needed to do in order to be saved, you would have given a different answer wouldnt you?

          • Stephanie August 24, 2013

            those who heard in Acts 2 did not ask what they need to do in order to be saved. The scripture indicates that when they heard they were cut to the heart i.e. The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. Deuteronomy 30:6. This circumcision of their hearts took place before they were baptised at the time of their belief. They belonged to God the moment He cut their hearts. They then asked Peter what they should do. Peter told them to repent and be baptised. He did not tell them baptism was required for their salvation. Peter was a Jew and he was speaking to Jews in Acts 2. It was customary for Jews to participate in the Mikveh (baptism) which was used to show the community that they were going from a state of impurity to purity, it was also used at the time of Jewish conversion. When a Gentile became a Jew they were baptised in Mikveh. John the baptist preached a baptism of repentence, to lead the way for Christ. Peter was following the Jewish tradition. He told them to repent and be baptised. Be baptised i.e. show the community you have repented of your sins and are converted unto Christ. Why would Peter imply to the Jews that baptism were required for their salvation? If the Jews thought they could be saved through baptism or mikveh, why would they have believed Peter’s account that Jesus is the Christ who saves them? If they thought they could be saved through mikveh, what did they need Christ for? They knew mikveh didn’t save. They believed what Peter said because the Holy Spirit made it evident to them when He cut their hearts, that Jesus was the Messiah, the one who came as promised to fulfill the law and the testimony of the prophets. They knew that Jesus=Messiah=Savior not Mivkeh=Baptism=Salvation. Did Jesus atone for their sins or did baptism atone for their sins?

            I have already told the crowd what they need to do in order to be saved which was based on the whole Bible and not simply based on words that you have added to Acts 2.

            Jesus said: But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. Jhn 20:31

            If we put the whole Bible together, we can see that those in Acts 2 were saved the moment they believed the gospel message given to them by Peter because their hearts were cut.

            Ezekiel 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

            Only a saved heart would follow the command of God to be baptised. God saves at the time of belief.

          • Stephanie August 24, 2013

            One other thing, why would any one who calls themself a Protestant, hold to the heretical teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, that Grace it literally conferred in baptism?

          • dave August 24, 2013

            Stephanie, I dont know or care what Catholics teach but I don know that after Christ died, NO ONE in the New Testament was considered saved until they had been baptized. Please peruse the book of Acts and read over the dozen or so “conversion” stories. I think you would agree that no one can be saved until he/she comes into contact with the blood of Christ. Romans plainly states that we come into contact with that blood at baptism. And since you are knowledgeable about the Bible (and I do mean that and commend you) where is the “sinners prayer” found? Surely if its not in the Bible you would question it, right?

          • Stephanie August 24, 2013

            Dave, I don’t derive my theology from the Book of Acts alone, I derive my theology from the whole Bible and I would encourage you to do the same. There just isn’t anything visible in the Book of Acts that solidifies your argument that salvation only happens at the time of water baptism. I would have to read something into it that just isn’t there, and I won’t limit God by putting Him in a box i.e. in Acts 10:44 when salvation is extended to the Gentiles, they receive the Holy Spirit, speak in tongues, and magnify God, and they do it all before their baptism. Unregenerate, unsaved, wicked people do not magnify God with their tongues. Restorationists like to take up residence in the Book of Acts, but that provides for little growth when it comes to becoming mature in Christ. I find it interesting that you keep bringing up the Book of Romans because I have spent the better part of this past year studying that particular Book. Paul is clear, we are justified by faith. He also states justification by faith clearly in Galatians which is the Reader’s Digest version of Romans. I’m sure if baptism were required for our salvation, Paul would have been much clearer and straight forward in his epistles regarding this. Also, to clarify, I never said anything about a “sinners prayer” in my presentation of the gospel, and I am in no way dismissing the importance of baptism, nor am I saying that we should not be baptised. God Bless!

          • Lynn Alan August 25, 2013

            When you read Peter’s explanation of the conversion of the Gentiles “in orderly sequence” in Acts 11, you will discover that the Holy Spirit fell upon the Gentiles as he began to speak (11:15). But the previous verse says “he will speak words to you by which you will be saved” (11:14). The conclusion seems to be that the Holy Spirit fell on the Gentiles before they heard the saving message – thus its occurrence had nothing to do with the Gentiles being saved, but everything with their being recognized as acceptable by the Jews.

          • Lynn Alan August 25, 2013

            Stephanie, your comment about circumcision of the heart is incorrect. If you will read Colossians 2:11-12 you will discover that the circumcision made without hands was performed via baptism.
            In fact Peter in his first letter very clearly says “baptism now saves you” 1 Peter 3:21.

          • Lynn Alan August 26, 2013

            Stephanie made the following comment “It is inconceivable that anyone would teach that a wicked, unsaved, sinner, with a deceitful, disobedient, unregenerate, heart of stone, and desires of the flesh, could possibly step foot into a baptismal in order to please a God whom no sinner would seek after.” Is this biblical or your and John Calvin’s opinion?

          • Stephanie August 25, 2013

            Lynn, Like Dave you have added words to Colossians 2:11-12 that are not there. The message given by God throughout the entire Bible is that God circumsizes the heart, yes, it is done by the Holy Spirit and not by hands, baptism is done by human hands. As for you going to the 1 Peter 3:21 verse. I think you need to do some study on this one, lets begin with the KJV:

            21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

            Now, lets look at the Greek for this “like figure”.

            Strong’s Number G499 matches the Greek ἀντίτυπος (antitypos),

            antitypos- 1) a thing formed after some pattern. 2) a thing resembling another, its counterpart

            Going back to v20: ……in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is,

            eight souls, were saved through water.

            v.21 The like figure……….

            The like figure is Christ, Christ is the living water. Not the flood waters, not the baptismal waters, the living water, Christ.

            v.18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

            For example, with Noah, it was his faith in the promise of God that saved him, It was of faith that he built the ark and got in it. In the Old Testament water is a symbol, a sign of the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who gives life, takes life, brings back to life, and cleanses. Water is used as a symbol of the Holy Spirit. The flood waters did not save Noah, Noah was saved through his faith in the promise of God. This is a foreshadow of Christ.

            I think the NKJV helps to bring understanding to this: 1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

            The antitype is Christ, who now saves us-baptism (John the baptist said he baptized with water, but Christ would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire. Fire is another OT symbol that represents the essense and work of God) not the removal of filth from the flesh (not with the washing of water), but the answer of a good conscience toward God (a repentent heart/soul/faith), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

            Now, going back to Acts 2, they were baptized with the Holy Spirit (the wind) and by fire (the work and essence of God). They were not in a baptismal. They were sitting in a house.

            When Peter told them to repent and be baptized, do we have any information given that describes them receiving a water baptism? Were they baptized (immersed in) the Holy Spirit because they believed the gospel,or did they get into the water because God can only work if there is water present?

            1 Peter 3:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

            Were they baptized with water or were they baptized with the Holy Spirit when they received his word and came to faith? Is it possible to give 3000 people a water baptism in one day? How do we know that the Holy Spirit did not manifest himself as a great wind that swept through the crowd of 3000 resulting in immediate baptism to all who “received the word”. Were there really 3 wise men and a barn with straw or do we have a preconceived idea that there was? Do we need a visible manifestation of God i.e. water, wind, fire, in order to believe that we are saved and have received the indwelling of the Spirit today? Would God really make salvation dependent on an act of man?

            Jhn 20:31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

          • Lynn Alan August 25, 2013

            Your problem is that you want to go to the Scriptures to confirm what you believe rather than allowing the Scriptures to inform you of what you should believe.
            Have you ever heard of the ABC’s of Understanding the Scriptures? The idea is to allow the Scriptures to interpret themselves.
            ABC’s to Understanding the Bible
            When You Find a Difficult Verse:
            Define Every Word
            Clearly State What Words Say
            Use Your ABC’s
            A = Look at Verse Above
            B = Look at Verse Below
            C = Look at Verse in the Context
            D = Doublecheck Other Verses
            http://youtu.be/rn3PuG3SiWw

            Why do people outside of the church take things differently? It is a matter of whether or not one loves the truth please lisen to the following on YouTube and judge for yourself.

            http://youtu.be/tH2SmGXvviA?t=23m58s

          • Lynn Alan August 26, 2013

            Stephanie it is apparent that two things occur when you read the Scriptures. The first is that you already know what you believe they teach thus you read the Scriptures with that in view. This of course means that you do not love the truth and as the Scriptures clearly state “because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
            Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness” (2 Th 2:10-12).

            Now concerning the type and antitype teaching of 1 Peter 3 if Christ is the antitype and this baptism is a reference to baptism of the Holy Spirit, then why do the Baptist even baptize in water? Just how many baptisms are there??
            There is no purpose discussing the Scriptures with a person who does not want to believe anything but what they have been taught all their life to believe is true. I once stood where you now stand, but one day decided to read the Scriptures without anyones comment allowing only the Scriptures to speak. I had to stop being a Baptist which I had been for 40 years and become a member of the church.

  • Stephanie August 26, 2013 Reply

    Lynn, Sinful people do not seek after God, that is scriptural and comes from the Apostle Paul who takes it from the OT: Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
    21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
    3:11 “There is no one righteous, not even one;
    11 there is no one who understands;
    there is no one who seeks God.
    Sinful, wicked people, who are not saved do not get into the baptismal of their own accord.

    It seems to me that you are grasping and now want to make this about me personally. You have assumed wrong. My first baptism was in the Mormon Church when I was a child of 8. They teach that baptism is required for salvation and are a twisted works based religion. My second baptism took place about 4 years ago and I have been inductively studying the Bible ever since. My “lifetime” of learning consists of 4 years of pure hunger for the word of God and letting scripture interpret scripture my passion to share that with others who have been misled is a result of my Mormon heritage and the deception that they and others who teach baptismal regeneration thrive on. I study the Bible so that no man will deceive me.

    Romans 3:21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

    Now, if you are fine with requiring a work such as baptism for your salvation, more power to you. I hope you are 100% obedient to EVERY command of God, because if you are not, you will be damned, “those who choose to live by the law will be judged by the law”. I’ll let you look that one up yourself. It’s stated both in Romans and James. With that, I bid you good day!

    • Lynn Alan August 26, 2013 Reply

      You are correct about Mormonism but you are not correct about man seeking God. You assume that man is totally depraved but this is not taught in the Scriptures. I agree that once we understand what the difference between right and wrong are and choose to do wrong we become sinners, but this does not mean we cannot be turned around by the Word of God – the Gospel. After all is it not the power of God unto salvation?
      But you are confused about the role of baptism since you refer to it as a work. You do realize that faith is categorized as a work also, but you do not have any problem with making this a necessary prerequisite to salvation. What about repentance? Does one have to repent in order to receive forgiveness of sins? Confession? These are all depicted in the Greek with a verb in the active voice but baptism is usually in passive voice.
      All through Scripture God has “saved” people the same way:
      Justification before God has always involved GRACE – FAITH – LAW – WORKS
      (of obedience) – (resulting in) SALVATION
      All these elements may be found in the salvation of Noah, the fall of the walls of Jericho, and in the New Covenant of Christ.

      • Stephanie August 27, 2013 Reply

        Lynn,

        from Genesis 8:21 “EVERY inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood.”

        Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

        Romans 3:10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;

        Romans 3:11 Romans 3:11
        there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.

        Mark 10:18 Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good–except God alone.

        If we could choose right, we would be able to overcome sin of our own accord and would not need a Savior. The Mormons believe men are basically good and have a saying “Choose the Right”. You sound like a Mormon to me.

        We are only turned around after God brings us to faith when we hear the gospel. We are saved when we believe the gospel. This is a work of the Holy Spirit.

        “After all is it not the POWER of God unto salvation”?

        “I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws” (Ezek. 36:26-27).

        Faith is not a work, I have had Mormons tell me that it is, BTW. Faith is not an action verb it is a noun in the greek. Strong’s G4102, pistis, a feminine noun, conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it.

        Repentance is more than just seeking forgiveness. Repentence is turning away from ourselves and our old ways and turning to God and His ways.

        Belief, confession, and repentance all happen in the heart/soul of a man when God works on a man’s heart via the Holy Spirit to bring a man to belief in the gospel message.

        We are told repeatedly in the Bible that belief in the finished work of Christ on the cross is what justifies/saves, but we are not told that water baptism specifically saves. You have to add that to scripture in order to make it fit.

        I am going to end this converstation and leave you with this:

        “One thing you might want to do in a case like this is to go to your Bible concordance and look up “baptize” or “baptism” or “baptized,” passages that would speak to this issue. Then write the verses out on 3×5 cards and look at them. You’ll be able to isolate all the verses which talk about this idea. Make one pile that has to do with the baptism of John. Make another pile with verses that have to do with the baptism of trial (e.g. Jesus says in Mark 10:38 “Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?”)–a different kind of baptism of pain and suffering that Jesus spoke about. Then there would be another pile about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, etc. (I’ve included a list of all the verses on Christian water baptism at the end of this piece.)”
        http://www.str.org/articles/is-baptism-necessary-for-salvation-2

        I hope you will get this sorted out for yourself. God Bless!

        • Lynn Alan August 27, 2013 Reply

          Belief a verb and faith a noun are closely related. We are commanded to believe in Jesus not faith in Him. John 6:28-29 Jesus was asked what may we DO that we may work the works of God? What was Jesus’ answer, nothing?
          You like to nitpick – I am sorry.

          • Stephanie August 27, 2013

            It’s not nitpicking, it’s called trying to induce critical thinking skills.

            Belief=faith=4102=pistis=noun same word.

            Why does every man not believe the command of God to “believe”?

            John 6:29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

            Believe is a verb, to believe is the work OF God. God brings us to our belief, faith, or trust in His promises through His work. The definition for of: originating at or from. Belief originates at or from God. Do you believe in the one He sent before or after you get in the baptismal?

            2Th 2:13 But 1161 we 2249 are bound 3784 to give thanks 2168 alway 3842 to God 2316 for 4012 you 5216, brethren 80 beloved 25 of 5259 the Lord 2962, because 3754 God 2316 hath 138 0 from 575 the beginning 746 chosen 138 you 5209 to 1519 salvation 4991 through 1722 sanctification 38 of the Spirit 4151 and 2532 belief 4102 of the truth 225:

          • Lynn Alan August 27, 2013

            It is pointless discussing the Scriptures with you because you have made up your mind before you look at the Scriptures and anything you read will therefore support what you already believe.

          • Lynn Alan August 28, 2013

            Stephanie:
            You have disregarded a basic tenet of exegesis by taking 2 Thessalonians 2:13 out of context in order to prove oa point. The very next verse tells exactly how God brings us to belief. There, Paul by inspration writes, “…He called you by our gospel, unto you obtaining (the) glory of our the Lord Jesus Christ” [2:14].
            On your comment concerning John 6 – since the Scriptures originated from God then one may in essence say that “belief originates at or from God.” But this is not what John 6 is teaching–the word “God” in verse 29 is in the genitive case the primary function of which is to show possession (the genitive case may also be descriptive, apposition, serve as subject, function as direct object, combine the previous two, indicate relationship, etc.). Paul, wrote to the Christians at Rome, “Therefore the faith (i.e., the system of religious truth, Gospel, itself) has its source as hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:17).
            Two simple questions: (1) Do you believe that the Scriptures are the only religious authority we have today? (2) When Jesus commanded:
            Mat 28:19-20 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (20) teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. And
            Mar 16:15-16 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. (16) He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”
            and Peter told those gathered in Jerusalem:
            Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
            Were they commanding baptism in water or in the Holy Spirit? Why?
            Here is a little hint baptism of the Holy Spirit cannot be commanded–so as you or I look up all these verse where any derivitive of “baptism” may be found this must be kept in mind.
            One other thing in Ephesians 2 Paul makes a very important observation, which the “faith only” advocates totally misunderstand.
            Eph 2:8-9 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of
            τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, Θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·
            God; (9) not of works, that no man should glory.
            οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων, ἵνα μή τις καυχήσηται.
            οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων = the source is not works. The source of salvation is God’s grace, but Paul here does not rule out any involvement of works of obedience!!

    • Lynn Alan August 26, 2013 Reply

      I am happy to hear that you do not obtain all your theology from the book of Acts. Yet, the question must be asked, does the theology presented in Acts somehow contradict that found elsewhere in the New Testament that it should be discounted as irrelevant. Does not the book of Acts show the spread of the Gospel and how it was accepted by the ones who gladly received the Word of God.
      Tell me, if you can, which of the 9 conversations was not baptized immediately?

  • Rick September 19, 2013 Reply

    This type of article is what is wrong with the Church. Instead of opening Hearts to Christ, your turning them away. If we worship the same God and seek salvation through his Son Christ, can we not set aside the bickering over belief systems? This article and the other article referenced and written by the author of this article are very sad and disheartening. In today’s world where the Bible, God and prayer are being chastised and politically incorrect can we not embrace one another in our common relationship with Christ instead of bickering like school kids because you disagree?

  • Joe Plumlee September 19, 2013 Reply

    In times like these, we best team up with Christian Brothers who are not afraid to share the Gospel! We team up with Roman Catholics on abortion. We do not have to believe their doctrine, but as we see the world going down the tube, anyone who mentions Christ should be supported. Our own Foreign Missionaries team up with a multitudes of denomination and groups for support. The fear is that people with shallow understanding of their faith will go over to the Church of Christ. Whose fault is that but ours. We must not be afraid to preach the gospel. Our own churches are watering down what we believe. If we give our people the gospel, they will find the truth.

    • Jim December 25, 2013 Reply

      Well, now, isn’t this just dandy. Why don’t we team up with the homosexuals on disaster relief. Good Grief! I’m sick and tired of this ecumenical approach to fellowship. The church of the Lord is an exclusive institution. Have you forgotten that the gospel of Christ is the most offensive thing in the World? I have no respect for the man (or woman) who will sacrifice dogma to make way for prejudice. In this case, prejudice that says that we should always do everything to be agreeable and damn the doctrine if it gets in the way. We will live by every word of God or we will die.

  • Rick September 21, 2013 Reply

    I honestly prefer the church of Christ. To yay that’s a shallow understanding is offensive to myself and mullions of other. Let us interpret Gods word as we see fit and don’t blame yourself for our understanding of the Gospel.

  • chris September 23, 2013 Reply

    All I have to say to the Christians involved in the nitpicking of the doctrine of baptism, when this family is the BOLDEST for Christ of anyone at their level of fame has been in a LONG time… in the particular day and age in which we live… is REALLY?!?!!!!!! 2 Timothy 2:23-24; Proverbs 20:3… look it up., let’s “quarrel” about that. Get the speck out of your eye people.

    • Lynn Alan September 24, 2013 Reply

      It is not my purpose to quarrel. I believe that the Scriptures are and should be the only source of authority in all religious matters. And I am hoping that it is with gentleness that I am using the Scriptures that all may be lead to a knowledge of the truth and thereby be united as one in truth.

  • Chris September 24, 2013 Reply

    Oh Come on now. Either we all share the exact same view on baptism or we are somehow less Christian than you? And it’s is in all gentleness that I ask how many people you have boldly shared the gospel of Jesus with this week…which after all is the foremost matter, and additionally if given such a platform as the Robertson family if you would so confidently swim upstream in full view of all critics subjecting yourself to persecution so willingly? Let’s as Christians not be blinded by such minute issues that we lose the real picture… Which is the TRUTH OF CHRIST is being proclaimed! 🙂

  • Patrick September 27, 2013 Reply

    The Robertson’s are a breath of fresh air, no matter your view of baptism.

    Compared to most of what is broadcast on our television, anyone with any moral fiber at all should be DVRing every episode for their family to watch over and over.

    I applaud A&E for having the guts to go against the grain and produce a show that 99% of the folks in “Hollyweird” (This is how Phil referred to Hollywood) wouldn’t touch with a 10 foot cattle prod for fear of “offending” people, and yet, Christ is proclaimed and people still watch. Actually, the fourth season premiere was THE MOST-WATCHED NON-FICTION SERIES TELECAST IN CABLE TV HISTORY!
    That should excite all followers of Christ that people are still interested in the gospel of Jesus!

    I hope this show inspires other networks to follow suite and produce similar shows.

    May God continue to bless Duck Dynasty.

    • Jim December 25, 2013 Reply

      Well, now what’s your opinion of A&E?

  • Clay October 2, 2013 Reply

    Very detailed conversation ladies. A simple search on you tube of ‘rightly dividing” the word of truth could easily put an end to the discrepancies.

  • Brad October 11, 2013 Reply

    Nit picky is good when it comes to the doctrine of salvation . . . or any other non-negotiable doctrine for that matter. For anyone who claims the name of Jesus Christ, Matthew 7 should be a frightening reminder of the importance of getting it right:

    13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

    15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

    21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

    Matthew 7

    My guess is that those referenced in verses 21-23 also believed themselves to be those exhibiting the “good fruit” referenced in verses 15-20, they thought they had it right.

    In regard to salvation, everybody can’t be right. Someone is right and someone is wrong, and the consequence for being wrong is HELL forever, so it is worth discussing, because the Lord does not desire anyone to perish.

    FYI – I still enjoy watching D/D

    • Chris October 11, 2013 Reply

      So people such as the Robertson family that may argue that baptism is necessary for salvation may go to Hell over that discrepancy? So if one can go to Hell over arguing baptism then I guess one can also go to Hell for arguing the opposite. I am convinced that God is much bigger than such trivialities… As the Bible also says that believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is the way to Heaven and thats it. I know the Robertson’s personally and can attest that they live their lives for Jesus, and love their neighbors in a way few people do. As far as the GOSPEL that I read that is it…the end.

      • Lynn Alan November 14, 2013 Reply

        Dear friend: When one takes into account everything that is said in the New Testament concerning the forgiveness of sins it is quiet surprising. The Scriptures do teach that one must believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God in order to receive forgiveness of sins, but no where do these Scriptures say nor imply that salvation is by belief or faith alone. Search the Scriptures for yourself and see. Jesus told Nicodemus that the new birth consisted of water AND Spirit. Peter told the believing Jews on the first Pentecost after the Lord’s resurrection that it was necessary for them to “Repent, and each of you be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ unto the forgiveness of your sins” (Acts 2:38). It is not my place or yours or anyone elses for that matter to tell God His Scriptures are incorrect and that He has not “granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness” (cf., 2 Peter 1:3). When the penitent Jews asked Peter “What shall we do?” Why not tell those folks ‘there is nothing you can do, God’s grace is all you need so just ask (or accept) Jesus into your hearts and be saved?’ Asking the sinner to pray for forgiveness is so against the teaching of the Scriptures, especially since it is only those who are justified, or considered righteous before God, whom have the promise of having their prayers answered.
        I do not understand why man seems to think that he knows better than God. Just because we do not understand why, or perhaps we do understand the reasoning, but we do not see the point in immersion. All God has ever asked is that man have an obedient faith. This was the faith that Noah had and also Abraham. Paul, in writing to the church in Rome, twice mentions “obedience of faith” (Romans 1:5: 16:26). The Scripture most often used to prove salvation is by grace alone (or grace via faith only) is Ephesians 2:8-9. Yet, the Greek has a definite article before faith (just like in Jude 3 and Galatians 3:25ff) thus “the faith,” is a reference to something very specific and not the noun form of believe (a verb). The faith is that which “many priests were obedient to” (Acts 6:7), it was “preached by Paul after his conversion” (Galatians 1:23). This is that by which people become the sons of God (Galatians 3:26), therefore, it is the gospel of the risen Lord (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 6:3-4). By reading Romans 6 several things may be observed:
        1. Paul says, “all of us who have been immersed into Christ Jesus have been immersed into His death” -verse 3. Since Christ shed His blood when He died upon the cross, then it is here that one comes into contact w/ the cleansing blood. [No one can be clensed by His blood before they contact it].
        2. Again we are “immersed into Christ Jesus,” and this is where “every spiritual blessing in the heavenly” exists (Ephesians 1:3).
        3. “…as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we to might walk in newness of life” -verse 4. How can anyone start their new life before it begins??
        It is the Scriptures that tell man the way to heaven and he does not have the right nor the authority to change anything. Or to make one command less important than another or for that matter to declare certain aspects of God’s revealed plan unnecessary. It would seem that in the 6000+ years that mankind has been on earth we have learned nothing from the past mistakes God has revealed from Adam forward.
        “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
        Nor are your ways My ways” declares Jehovah.
        “For the heavens are higher than the earth,
        So are My ways higher than your ways
        And My thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8-9).

        “I know, O Jehovah, that the way of man is not in himself,
        that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps” (Jeremiah 10:23).

  • Joe Sunshine October 28, 2013 Reply

    keep on doing what your doing duck dynasty!!!! change nothing !

  • Danny Loesch November 13, 2013 Reply

    Let the Scriptures speak for themselves on baptism in Jesus name. The Scriptures link baptism with salvation, union with Christ, forgiven, clothed with Christ, buried and raised with Christ, new birth, water of regeneration, spiritual circumcision of sins, gift of the Holy Spirit… How could it be optional or replaced by a sinners prayer? If there was ever a sinners prayer in the N.T. It was Paul in Damascus where he was told he was waisting his time and needed to wash his sins away in baptism. It is a shame that sectarians have proudly used God’s gracious command to unite believers as a church ordinance to divide them and wear the denominational name. Paul made it very clear that baptism is an act of faith not an act of personal righteousness Gal.3. Preachers are called to preacher the Gospel to everyone, tell the sinner to repent, and trust Christ alone in baptism into union with Him and enjoy fellowship with His church.

  • Larry b November 20, 2013 Reply

    I say turn the TV off and study God’s word and there won’t be any discussion on these topics of no value. 99% of everything on TV should not even be pumped into our homes (unless it’s Andy Griffith of course). Try turning the TV off for a week and communicate with your family a little more. Romans 12:1& 2.

  • Lynn Alan November 25, 2013 Reply

    can you give an example of what exactly you are referring to. As I read the Scriptures I find that doctrine is crystal clear and not open to interpretation. Yet there are teachings within the Bible that are not as clear, but also do not pertain to salvation (the eating or not eating of meat).

  • Danny November 26, 2013 Reply

    God linked baptism into Christ with repentance and faith. He did not make this command optional because He has an eternal purpose to unite people in the one body / church. Those who reject the Bible on this do so because they see baptism as some proud work of personal righteousness. To these folks it earns membership in a local sect. Jn 3:5 and Titus 3:5 put baptism on the side of faith not personal works of law.

  • gary December 9, 2013 Reply

    I Corinthians 15:29

    Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

    This is a very odd passage of Scripture. The Mormons use this passage as the basis for their belief in Baptism for the Dead. I will present the orthodox Christian/Lutheran view of this passage below, but first I would like us to look at something else in this passage that is odd:

    If the Church in Corinth had been taught by the Apostle Paul that the manner in which one is saved is to pray (verbally or nonverbally) a sincere, penitent, prayer/petition to God, such as a version of the Sinner’s Prayer, why does this passage of God’s Holy Word discuss baptisms for the dead and not “prayers for the dead”, specifically, praying a version of the Sinner’s Prayer for the dead?

    Isn’t that really odd? No matter what activity was actually going on in the Corinthian church regarding “the dead”, why is the discussion/controversy about baptism and not the “true” means of salvation according to Baptists and evangelicals: an internal belief in Christ; an internal “decision” for Christ?

    And even more odd…why didn’t Paul scold the Corinthians for focusing so much on baptism which he had surely taught them (according to Baptists and evangelicals) was nothing other than an act of obedience; a public profession of faith??

    Why so much emphasis on baptism?

    Is it possible that the reason that the Corinthians were so concerned about baptism is that they had been taught by the Apostle Paul and other Christian evangelists that salvation and the promise of the resurrection of the dead and eternal life are received in Baptism, just as orthodox Christians, including Lutherans, have been teaching for almost 2,000 years??

    Gary
    Luther, Baptists, and Evangelicals

    • Jim December 25, 2013 Reply

      Indeed! “We know that if we are buried with him in the likeness of his death, we will be of his resurrection.” Now why would a Baptist minister cheat his hearers of this wonderful way to assurance. It is so nice to know that God is obligated to resurrect me as a Brother to Christ because I have been buried in the Lord’s grave. What cheaters they are! By the way, death and especially burial are not a work.

  • Danny Loesch December 12, 2013 Reply

    Excellent question Gary! One has to approach the Scriptures with a bias to even question the spiritual blessings offered in baptism. The whole debate on “is baptism essential?” is not Biblical. No one asked such a question! Bible writers like Paul believed and practiced every spiritual truth they taught on it and so did ALL those who accepted Christ on His terms.

  • ExChurchofChrister December 19, 2013 Reply

    I grew up in the Church of Christ (father was an elder) and found it extremely legalistic and inflexible –especially on things they viewed as crucial as baptism. That ritual had to be done immediately as you’re not “saved/forgiven” until you’re totally immersed (buried and raised again). You Baptists feel it was fine to schedule such things a few times a year (and that’s one reason you’re all going to hell 😉 Not so the CofC. But heaven forbid you dropped dead on your way from the altar call to the baptistry… if you weren’t dripping wet you weren’t saved.

    An elder was teaching a class on the subject once (for the millionth time) and felt obliged to state yet again that proper repentance baptism was the ONLY way of salvation and everlasting life.

    Now I had been severely disabled a few years earlier and had become an activist in that movement. I pointed out that I knew people who were 100% bedridden, on ventilators and physically unable to undergo the immersion underwater the church required. I asked if these people were therefore doomed to spending eternity in hell. He replied “I’m afraid they are.”

    The more distance I’ve put between myself and religion the more I realize it’s all just man made hooey. I have no problem with what people want to believe, how they spend their time or money. However, I will do all I can to push back against those who use religion to infringe on the rights of others.

    • Jim December 25, 2013 Reply

      Dear Ex: I find your comment a bit stagy. Reads a bit like a Hollywood script, complete with the inflexible preacher in an ill-fitting suit.

      Logically, your reasons for being irreligious are of no consequence pertaining to the subject at hand. You have indulged in a trick that was used on me years ago while talking to my Father-In-Law. It was a discussion over women “speaking or holding authority over a man.” His coup de grace (or so he thought) was to ask me what I’d do about women singing in church. I was flummoxed somewhat and complained that he was nitpicking but I couldn’t see just how I could rejoin. When I got much older, I realized that this is a common tactic people use to distract away from the core question at hand. They look for a peripheral issue to drag into the discussion and substitute it for the core issue. This is what you’ve done by introducing “people who were 100% bedridden, on ventilators and physically unable to undergo the immersion underwater the church required.” You are attempting to distract us all from the important scriptural references to a discussion of a difficult case. Lawyers have a saying: Difficult cases make bad law.

      Indeed.

      Because your use of logic is a bit elementary, you might want to reconsider your decision to turn your back on the Lord. Yes, this is just what you’ve done by your own admission. Sorry to be so preachy but it’s God’s good pleasure to call men to his Son by the foolishness of preaching. You should repent, and soon. God will cut you no slack for achieving the status of an ex-anything.

      • Ed January 1, 2014 Reply

        The new testament is not case law. If you treat it as such, you richly deserve the theology you get.

  • Tim December 19, 2013 Reply

    One can hardly read the New Testament and overlook the commands of baptism. I don’t see why so many refuse to accept the teaching on baptism. It is an interesting parallel, to the story of Naaman and Elisha in 2 Kings 5. Naaman refused to wash himself in the Jordan, because in his mind that wasn’t how he thought he should be healed. His servant said ““My father, if the prophet had told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more, then, when he tells you, ‘Wash and be cleansed’!”

    How did you contact the blood of Christ?

    Wouldn’t it have been easier for many people to have just accepted Jesus into their hearts and be saved. But yet, they were baptized.

    This issue is not just church of Christ alone. Many of the non-denominational congregations propping up are examining the scriptures and reinforcing the essential role in Christianity?

  • Kevin December 19, 2013 Reply

    Read Muscle and A Shovel along with your Bible and it will bring clarity to this discussion.

    • Jim December 25, 2013 Reply

      Well, Kevin, I’m not going to do it. So there!

      Kidding aside, I never read a book thrown in my face. I consider this tactic an attempt to kill conversation. It certainly doesn’t allow me to respond in conversation which is what is happening here. Really, your post doesn’t even tell me which side of the discussion you are on. Why don’t you take the trouble to explain why you think Muscle and a Shovel brings clarity to the discussion. Don’t take the lazy way out. Give me a reason to go plunk down my hard-earned cash to buy and read your precious book.

  • Nick December 20, 2013 Reply

    I love this… I was born and raised in the Southern Baptist Denomination. However after the pastor of the Baptist church told me I was saved and saved forever, just by repeating him. I began to question everything. After much studying in the Bible “only” and without the views of any man. I found the church of Christ to be the one group of Christians that ahere closest to the Bible. I am now member of the body of Jesus Christ.

    If a group of people can lay aside what they have prospered every first day of the week, how cannot they not commune with their Lord and savior Christ every first day of the week???? Many will not understand that comment/question. Baptist groups do great things but the most important is to commune with the Lord and Savior every first day of the week. Hmmm take up offering but not commune??? And as far as Baptism there just isn’t any argument. Read your bible! I often wonder why the Baptist group use the term Baptist??

  • Nick December 20, 2013 Reply

    I made a post below, then seen your post after. I hate that you have been taught/told what you have. Only God will judge, no man can say who is or who isn’t going to heaven. As you probably know Matt 7:21 tells us many will call Lord, Lord but will not enter the Kingdom because the did not do the will of thy Father. The man that told you “I am afraid they are (doomed),” may or may not enter Heaven himself. He has not authority to say who does or doesn’t. As far as legalistic, Col 2:11-12 gives a Biblical example of legalistic (old law) verse 11 and what is not verse 12. Again I am sorry, that a man made those comments to you. But as far as religion and Bible goes, I myself will be found worshipping and partaking of the Lord’s supper as a member of the body of Christ every first day of the week as commanded. We all get rubbed wrong at times, but I hope we can keep our eyes on the prize. Best wishes and God bless. – Nick

  • Lynn Alan Heath December 20, 2013 Reply

    I am sorry that anyone would take it upon himself to assume the prerogative that only God has. Yet it is possible for even those who are severely disabled to obey what has been commanded by God in the Scriptures – I have witnessed such and participated. What you also fail to understand is that the purpose of baptism in the Baptist Church is not the same as that described in Scripture so they can easily schedule when and where baptism will occur.
    Anyone who seeks a reason to not submit in total obedience to the Lord will find an excuse to disregard what the Scriptures say.

  • Clark Raulerson December 20, 2013 Reply

    Baptism or really, immersion and faith in Jesus Christ for salvation needs to be understood together and not seperate. I will be brief since anyone reading this can read the scriptures for themselves. Romans chapters 4 and 5 is very clear salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ. And anyone who has read Acts knows ALL accounts of conversion include baptism when you have a complete account…all verses and in context whether in Acts 2, 8, 10 and so on. “What must I do to be saved” they were asked. Answer: “believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.” And that is what happened…but be honest and read the rest of the chapter….they were baptized before it was over.

    I will leave it at that. Acts 8:37 if anyone has a more literal (reliable) will see what one needs to be baptized, faith in Christ. We can argue over at what point was the Ethiopian Eunuch saved…before or after baptism. Yet the point is not baptism. And faith is not the Saviour either. Jesus is. Fix your understanding on JESUS and what He accomplished on the cross. And know this, faith in Christ Jesus is the crux of that matter. And no one in any Church of Christ would be baptized without FAITH and the same with Baptists. I like the way Calvary Chapel put it…keep the main thing the main thing….and Jesus Christ is the main thing when it comes to faith, repentance (who will repent without faith) to baptism.

    I have no problem with Acts 2:38 and yes, I believe fully the gentiles in Acts 10 were saved before they were baptized. Is this a contradiction? NO! Jesus Christ is the Saviour, He is Lord and the Lord included immersion by faith in his name and out of obedience that is what we need to do and not wait a week, month, or 6 month to be immersed in Christ.

    Maybe it’s time we teach/preach the scriptures book by book as it is written and not the copy/paste approach which leads the minister to focus on his pet doctrines. Let the scriptures as written dictate what you teach whether it’s Romans 4 and 5 or Acts 2. Keep it real.

    Keep the faith and Shalom to all our brothers and sisters on Duck Dynasty.

  • Madison December 21, 2013 Reply

    I have read the previous comments with much appreciation of the biblical knowledge from both view points. It is evident that if Satan can keep believers arguing with each other and divided, we will never be able to fulfill the “Great Commandment”. This is why Islam will one day overtake Christianity as the dominate religion in the U.S.

  • Zac December 21, 2013 Reply

    There are two different kinds of truth. The one I love is Jesus. The rest are lesser forms of truth. They are based on our understanding of eternal principles and the scriptures. It’s possible to be 100% correct in your doctrine and out of touch with what the Father is doing. God likes to eat sacred cows.

  • Rob ( Sopchoppy) December 23, 2013 Reply

    I have read some of the comments and replys about if you have to be baptized or not be saved. The fact of the matter is not what denomination you believe in but if you you truly believe in Jesus Christ. People don’t realize that Baptist, Methodist, Chruch of Christ, Catholic, and other denominations of Christ will be in Heaven. In the same there will be members of these churches that will be in Hell. Paul wrote to different churches for different purposes. The bible states that there is only ONE way to be in Heaven with GOD, and that it through Jesus himself. All have sinned and fell short of the glory of God. We are not perfect and none of us are worthy of being with God because everyone has had sin in their life. It’s because of Jesus that we are saved. He preached love one another believe in me and spread the word. If Jesus is the true Lord of our life, lets not have strife between fellow believers. We need to go out and be fishers of men.

    • Lynn Alan December 24, 2013 Reply

      Actual, only the blood bought church of Jesus Christ will be in heaven. There is more to faith than just belief that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God. Jesus made the following statement in John 14:15–“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.” Based on the information in John chapters 14, 15, and 16 we can know that Jesus’ words extend to the apostles also because
      He promised them the Holy Spirit (another Helper or the Spirit of truth), “whom the Father would send in” His name, to teach them “all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.”
      Thus, when Jesus says that His words will judge all on the last day, that includes the words of the apostles. The command to submit to immersion is not optional. We are saved totally by the grace and mercy of God, but in order to obtain God’s grace He has basically setup a test to see if we will obey Him without questioning why (even though the why may be found in the Scriptures).

  • SavedByGrace December 23, 2013 Reply

    Exalting John the baptist, a sinner, over Christ the Son of GOD and Savior of the world. In like manner, Catholics exalting Mary and Peter over Christ.

    1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

  • SavedByGrace December 23, 2013 Reply

    Original sin?
    Genesis 1:26 Then GOD said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness. 27 So GOD created man in His Own image, in the image of GOD He created him; male and female He created them.

    Matthew 18:3 “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

  • SavedByGrace December 23, 2013 Reply

    Which words of the Christ are not true?
    John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of Grace and Truth.
    John 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36 Whoever BELIEVES in the Son HAS eternal life; whoever DOES NOT OBEY the Son shall NOT see life, but the wrath of GOD remains on him.
    1John 5:1 Everyone who BELIEVES that Jesus is the Christ has been born of GOD, and everyone who LOVES the Father loves whoever has been born of Him. 2 BY THIS we KNOW that we love the children of GOD, when we LOVE GOD and OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS. 3 For this is the love of GOD, that we KEEP His commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For everyone who has been born of GOD overcomes the world. And this is the VICTORY that has overcome the world-our FAITH.
    5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who BELIEVES that Jesus is the Son of GOD?
    Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
    1 Peter 3:21-22 BAPTISM, which corresponds to this, NOW SAVES you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an APPEAL to GOD for a good conscience, THROUGH the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of GOD, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to Him.

  • Brian December 23, 2013 Reply

    I was raised in Churches of Christ and now attend a Texas Baptist Church.

    Through my experience, I can say without a doubt that SOME Church of Christ members believe in the concept of “baptismal regeneration” while many others do not. The two groups can really have some knock-down-drag-outs.

    From what I can gather, the White’s Ferry Road Church would not fall into the “baptismal regeneration” category.

    Finally, being a current member of a Baptist Church, I hate when Baptists try to tell others what Church of Christ people think and believe. Unless you were raised and immersed in it (pun intended), you really aren’t in a position to speak as an authority on the issue.

    • Lynn Alan December 24, 2013 Reply

      I do not know of anyone in the church of Christ that believes in “baptismal regeneration.” That is a concept that implies that there is something special about the water, but the Scriptures do not teach nor imply any such thing. The power is in the blood of Jesus Christ which was shed on the cross (i.e., at His death) and it is by means of immersion (baptism) that the penitent believer contacts that blood (in a figurative sense, not literally). How do we know this? The apostle Paul, writing to the church in the city of Rome, said:
      “[D]o you not know that all of us who have been immersed into Christ Jesus have been immersed into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through immersion into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we to might walk in newness of life” (Romans 6:3-4).
      To claim that immersion is not necessary contradicts the Scriptures themselves. Not to mention the fact that somehow the person (or persons) who have only believed in Jesus are saved prior to
      having a new life as well as (based on Paul’s statements in verses 5-7) not crucifying the old self “in order that our body of sin might be done away with.” Without submitting to immersion the penitent believer is no different than the demons who believe and shudder (James 2:19).

      • SavedByGrace December 24, 2013 Reply

        Amen & amen. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. May all who post here seek & pray fervently for GOD’s wisdom & His will to be solidified in our minds & spirits. He promises He hears and answers for He does not want any to be lost. May we each love our neighbor as ourselves as it is the second greatest command & by doing so, we show our love for GOD 1st.

  • Nick December 23, 2013 Reply

    Each coC is autonomous… Just bc a building has church of Christ does not mean its tied to any other church of Christ. Each congregation is self governing with Jesus Christ as the Head of the body. A coC does not answer to a convention, creed, chapter, articles of faith etc… The bible and only the bible has authority in Christs blood bought church. Salvation is simple and in direct line with the inspired Word of God wo any contradiction. E.g. Paul and his salvation: most are mislead in the denominational account of Paul and his salvation. Paul does everything his Lord and savior commands. Did Paul believe Christ was the Son of God? Yes. Did Paul confess Christ as being such? Yes. Did Paul repent? Yes. Did Paul have his sins remissed through immersion? Yes. Did Paul continue holdfast in faith? Yes. Most people would say Paul was saved on the road. That’s not possible according to the bible. The same people know and understand that if you are still in your sins wo repentance and remission your are not saved. Humm …. Paul was still in sin 3 days after he arrived in Damascus, so how was he saved on the road? That’s not contradiction that’s bible fact and it has harmony with all scripture. Paul with his belief and confession on road did not have faith in Chist yet nor the gospel at that point. But he was about to… Romans 10:9-10 is an amazing piece of God inspired scripture. Just like Romans 10:17 just a few verses later and how we obtain faith. Paul obtained his faith just like the the Galatians he writes to in 3:26… And those churches/Christians Paul writes to also broke bread on the first day of the week.

  • TexasPK&MOMof8 December 24, 2013 Reply

    I love the Lord…and I choose to follow HIS greatest commandment…to love others 🙂 I love DD and I have had some very horrible experiences in both southern Baptist churches and even worse inCOC ….. we are all sinners and fall short… BUT ALL can repent and be saved by Gods Grace… Christ died for us all… I was raised as a Baptist PK…as an adult I now attend CHRISTIAN CHURCH nondenome… I do not agree in splitting hairs and fighting over details or all the ways we can interpret Gods word… but instead I want the Holy Spirit to move in my life and I can only say that beyond the baptism beliefs being different between me and the way COC believes …I really just feel sorry for the COC believers…because I know how much they miss out on by NOT BEKIEVING ORFEELING OR EXPERIENCING THE HOLY SPIRIT… they miss ssssoooo much by the absence of 1/3 of the Trinity! My heart aches for those who have been taught to ignore and miss out on praise music…and the guidance and comfort and all the amazing and wonderful things that come along with experiences from the Holy Spirit… COC thinks they are THE CHURCH…as in the ONLY church of God.. which the totalitarianism is what makes a religeious belief into a cult instead… I am not sure about COC’S all being different…but I do know from things I have read…they do not believe all I have been taught…and I will not worry about who is right or wring..but instead I will just love em all and pray that others that believe how majority of COC persons do ; that they will find the truths …the love of God and find true salvation and feel – know – and experience THE AMAZING HOLY SPIRI of Jesus Christ…. God Bless

    • Nick December 24, 2013 Reply

      1/3….? I think you need to attend a coC instead of reading about it. To say coC only believes in in God and Son is a ignorant statement. The holy spirit dwells in the Christain, Romans 8:9. To deny that is to deny the bible. You made some very strong comments against the members of the body of Christ. Please do not Judge what you clearly do not know. I was raised baptist for 25 yrs, and yes each each church of Christ is autonomous and affiliates zero denominations of any sort. God does love all and execpects his children to do the same. I follow loving to the best of my ability, but I also try to follow ALL of Christ commandments: e.g. Love, faith, hope, mercy, belief in the Son, repentance, confession, baptism, Lords supper, etc… I choose it ALL and that FEELING I get isn’t describable in the human language…and that is why I am no longer in the denominational churches’… Eph 4. ONE!!! How can you say I don’t feel Gods love. If the church of Christ is wrong for believing the bible and it’s entirety and following ALL of Gods commandments …. I choose better safe than sorry every time!

    • Lynn Alan December 24, 2013 Reply

      Dear TexasPK&MOMof8 I am glad you told me what I believe with regards to the Holy Spirit, I am sure if you had not informed me I would have been clueless. Might I ask where in the Scriptures that you find “experiencing” the Holy Spirit is an emotional experience? I do not believe you will find anywhere in Scripture the Holy Spirit causing us to feel His presence.
      I know that the Holy Spirit, as well as My Lord Jesus the Christ, and God the Father reside within me-not because of anything I feel, but because the Scriptures state that it is so.

  • TS December 24, 2013 Reply

    Most of all we must remember that Christ died for all of us. All of us are sinners. The blood of Christ was the price for our sins. I find when there are questions like these the place to turn for answers is Christ. After all we serve a risen Savior. And Christ answers this question completely in Luke 23:42-43. The thief believed wasn’t able to be baptized but Christ said Today thou shalt be with me in paradise. What better authority than He who authored our salvation.

    • Nick December 24, 2013 Reply

      TS, why would the thief need to be baptized… Baptism for remission of sins is plainly defined in Romans chapter 6. Baptism is how we contact the blood of Christ, get into Christ of sin, put away the old man (sin). It represents death, burial, and the resurrection of Christ. It’s how we enter the Kingdom. Jesus gives the great commission of teaching Christ, belief, and baptism after he was resurrected. He also tells us he has all authority in Earth. So after presenting these biblical facts, why would the thief need to be baptized? Death, burial, resurrection, nor the commission of Christ has not even happened yet. Plus we know Jesus had all authority on Earth. You and I do not have the privilege to be told by Jesus Christ himself in the FLESH that we have a place in heaven. We have to do it the way Paul did (above post), and every other single conversation example in the bible after the death of our Savior. So the statement “questions answered completely,” is very biblically inaccurate. Using the thief on the cross as a example of not to be baptized for the remission sins is a common practice. However, it truly shows these things: the person saying that has no understanding of bible immersion or its purpose; they have not learned the events/timeline of the Gospel; they have been probably told to ask that question to someone that says immersion is needed to forgive sin (bc one who study’s would not even use that); they may question the power of Christ; or they just don’t know better. Hypothetically, let’s suggest that that the gospel has been put into place at the time of thief on the cross (which isn’t possible) but lets still suggest …. How do you, us, we, or anyone know if this thief who apparently has heard of Christ wasn’t baptized by John the Baptist? We are all sinners who fall short of the glory and hopefully Christ can see fit it for me a “sinner ” to have a place in heaven. But we must not confuse the difference between Christ on Earth 2,000 plus yrs ago and the bible we have today to follow and obey at the hope we may see external life in heaven.

    • Lynn Alan December 25, 2013 Reply

      Interesting that you would bring up the theif on the cross as applicable to today. If Jesus were here on earth, as during His ministry and before His ascension, then I suppose He could forgive my sins for that was His prerogative (being God incarnate). But since His will was probated we are bound by the terms of His will (testament or covenant). Prior to the death, burial, and resurrection man lived either under the law of Moses (Jews and proselytes) or the patriarchal law (applicable to Gentiles). You have chosen the wrong text for Christ’s answer, especially since you yourself acknowledged “we serve a risen Savior.”
      After His resurrection Jesus said:
      “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, immersing them into the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you….” (Matthew 28:19-20).
      “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been immersed shall be saved…..” (Mark 16:15-16a).
      Jesus promised to Peter the keys to the kingdom or he would be the first, of many, to tell how to enter the kingdom/church of God. He first used the keys on Pentecost to tell Jews and proselytes how to enter: “Change your hearts, and be immersed, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ into the forgiveness of your sins….” (Acts 2:38). [since these people already demonstrated that they believed, based on their question in verse 37, Peter did not tell them to believe]

  • Danny Loesch December 25, 2013 Reply

    If one thinks baptism is a meritorious work of personal righteous, he will never accept the significance of baptism. Paul thought he “washed away his sins” this means he was acquitted, justified or forgiven. He saw baptism as a gracious tangible gift to penitent believers and a means to accomplish God’s eternal purpose of one church under Christ. He uses it as a reference point. When he wanted to teach salvation by faith apart from Jewish Law and circumcision he used Baptism Col.2:11ff. When he taught on righteousness and by faith and oneness of Jew & Gentile believers he used baptism Gal.3:25ff. On salvation by God’s mercy as opposed to personal works of righteousness he used the new birth of baptism Titus 3:5. But Rom 6 is crucial. When he defended his gospel of grace and denied the accusation that it produced servants of sin, he used baptism as obedience to that same gospel of entering death to sin and resurrection to new life of righteousness. Either u accept the spiritual truths associated here or you don’t. If the things he says about baptism are not spiritual realities, how can they confirm his greater argument of a gospel that produces servants of righteousness? Baptism frees us from law through this spiritual death in baptism! Claim it believers! He assumes the saved are baptized in every case! He does not speak of unbaptized believers in any of these arguments. Let no no one talk you out of it! Those penitent sinners from John’s baptism on all thought they were being forgiven by God. The only people who rejected this from the beginning where self righteous Pharisees and religious leaders who saw the whole thing as as a threat Lk.7:30. God knows our hearts but He calls us to baptism and the church to TEACH IT as spiritual truth”
    Merry Christmas!

  • TS December 25, 2013 Reply

    I can say I truly appreciate the friendly debate. I commented not thinking I would change any one’s mind. And while I believe Christ called on all believers to be baptized as a sign of our faith in Him. It is through our faith and belief (belief that comes from the heart) (Acts 10:43/Romans 10:9-10) that we receive salvation. I truly believe that this is the truth of both the Old and New Testament. Faith is all that is accounted to righteousness. (Hebrews chapter 11). Old Testament salvation is faith in a coming Messiah that will die for their sins and in New Testament it is faith in a risen Messiah that died for our sins and will return again.
    But most of all I say that while we may not agree and some may say I am misguided; there is one thing I believe we all agree on. Jesus Christ is Lord of Lords and King of Kings and the author of our salvation and without His grace we all would be doomed to hell. So on this glorious Christmas Day I wish you all a very Merry Christmas and May God bless you and your families.

    • Lynn Alan January 1, 2014 Reply

      Faith is the foundation upon which obedience to God’s will is based. Man is saved by grace, but according to the Scriptures grace can only be found in Christ (Titus 2:11-12). Neither Acts 10:43 nor Romans 10:9-10 tell the person who is outside of Christ how to get into Christ. That information may only be found in two passages of Scripture, both written by the apostle Paul. Not only is grace found in Christ, but all spiritual blessings are to be found in Christ and this includes salvation (2 Timothy 2:10).

  • The Dropout December 25, 2013 Reply

    As an early dropout in graduate school, I have more questions that answers for all Church of Christ members.
    Do you hold fast to the teachings of Dr. Warren presented at Harding School of
    Bible and Religion concerning Logic and the Pattern–Direct Command, Apostolic example, Necessary Inference

    Are you members of
    The One Cup Church of Christ
    The Instrumental Church of Christ
    Do you believe in church support of orphans
    homes?
    Did you ever fellowship the Crossroads
    movement within the church?
    Do the congregations you attend have
    youth ministers?
    Do you have fellowship halls?
    Do you fellowship Ruble Shelly?
    Do you fellowship Max Lucado?
    At what point did you are will you withdraw
    fellowship from these groups?

    • Lynn Alan December 25, 2013 Reply

      First of all what no man says is inspired of God. Only the Scriptures contain the inspired word of God. Whether or not to use one cup/loaf in the Lord’s supper is a matter of opinion and the teaching of Paul in Romans 14 covers how we as Christians should treat our fellow brothers who have differing opinions that do not have anything to do with doctrinal matters. The support of orphans homes out of the church treasury rather than individually falls into the same area of understanding.
      The guidelines for withdrawing fellowship from an individual or an entire congregation is given to us by Jesus Himself (cf., Matthew 18:15-17).
      In regards to false teachers (even those who once spoke the truth, but do not do so any longer) we are warned by the Hebrew writer, “Do not be carried away with various and strange doctrines” (Hebrews 13:9a).
      Paul instructs us as follows:
      “Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self condemned” (Titus 3:10-11)
      “For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain…Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith” (Titus 1:10-13)
      “If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is gain. From such withdraw yourself” (1 Timothy 6:3-5).
      Based on this information it is left to the leadership of each congregation to decide when to withdraw from men or congregations which no longer teach truth.

      • Ed January 1, 2014 Reply

        You missed it Lynn. There is no end to the regulative principle from which C,E,N.I. is derived from. People were saved long before the Firm Foundation shamed everyone into imbecility.

  • SavedByGrace December 25, 2013 Reply

    Mark 1:4 John appeared, IMMERSING in the wilderness and proclaiming a immersion of repentance FOR the forgiveness of sins.

    Acts 10:35 but in every nation anyone who fears Him and does what is right is acceptable to Him.
    44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.
    45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.
    46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling GOD. Then Peter declared,
    47 “Can anyone withhold water for immersing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
    48 And he COMMANDED them to be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ.
    Romans 6:3 Do you not know that ALL of us who have been IMMERSED into Christ Jesus were IMMERSED into HIS death?
    4 We were BURIED therefore WITH HIM BY IMMERSION INTO DEATH, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in NEWNESS of life.
    5 For if we have been UNITED WITH HIM in a death LIKE HIS, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
    6 We know that our old self was CRUCIFIED with Him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
    7 For one who has DIED has been set FREE from sin.
    8 Now if we have DIED WITH Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him.
    9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over Him.
    10 For the death He died He died to sin, once for all, but the life He lives He lives to GOD.
    11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to GOD in Christ Jesus.

    • Jim December 26, 2013 Reply

      That’s the ticket!
      BTW, has anyone noticed that Phil Robertson doesn’t take off his hat when he prays at the table? His sons do but Phil keeps his on. What’s that all about? Isn’t he an elder in his congregation? He should know better. Did he teach his sons this behavior but won’t comply with the apostles instruction himself? Or is he afraid of a wardrobe malfunction if he removes it? Or maybe he’s bald underneath.
      The compromises some men will make for fame. tich, tich.
      Again, BTW, I took a look at the pictures of the elders on the White’s Ferry Church of Christ web site and there he is in the same garb he wears on the A&E show. Is he in character all the time? When compared to the photos of all the other elders, he looks like Walt Whitman at a Mormon convention.

  • Danny Loesch December 26, 2013 Reply

    I appreciate the spirit of this discussion. Let us try to understand how we have come to this disagreement. Paul did not use the words “works” and “obedience” as synonyms. His use of works especially in Romans is speaking of earning righteousness under law. In Rom 4 he plainly says if you do the work you earn the wage. But Law demands perfect obedience so no sinner will be justified by his works. But he must receive the gift of righteousness. This receiving is the obedience of faith. Faith looks to God alone! Paul nor any other Bible writer separates faith from acts of obedience when God links them together. Hebrews is filled with excellent examples of faith at work and the gracious results. No one would pit marching, against the walls of Jericho falling by faith. Marching is the obedience of faith and God is the only one who drought down the walls. When God links and action with a promised gift, the action / obedience stands for the faith and God alone is glorified. Get to know the Robertsons and their gracious church and you will never imagine their works as anything other than faith working by love of our gracious Lord Jesus. Pray for them!

  • Danny Loesch December 27, 2013 Reply

    There is more evidence to say this penitent, believing thief was baptized than to say he was not. Both Matt.3:5-6, Mk.1:5 say all the people confessed their sins and and were baptized by John, not counting those with Jesus. Yes faith is the gift link into grace so we will be sure to get God’s promise Rom.4:16. God sees our faith and be glad He does. But note Rom.6:16 clearly says obedience is unto righteousness. What God has joined together, man should not separate. God is accomplishing His will in ways we may not fully understand so let us simply trust and obey as we are able. As a hospice chaplain, I have shared the gospel with many patients. I baptized those who asked and were able, and prayed with those who were not able or allowed to be baptized. God knows they would have if they could have and that’s where we must leave all hypothetical questions… With the God who will never cheat a man and always do what is right. Remember, faith and baptism are gifts to sinners, not obstacles, not hinderances, not things to boast about, but links to the grace God so wants everyone to enjoy so we might have life with Him. Peace!

  • SavedByGrace December 27, 2013 Reply

    3 JESUS answered him, “TRULY, truly, I say to you, UNLESS one is BORN again he cannot see the kingdom of GOD.”
    4 Nicodemus said to Him, “HOW can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
    5 Jesus answered, “TRULY, truly, I say to you,UNLESS one is born of WATER and the SPIRIT, he CANNOT enter the kingdom of GOD.
    21 But whoever DOES what is TRUE COMES to the Light, so that it may be clearly seen that his WORKS have been carried out IN GOD.”
    22 After this JESUS and His disciples went into the Judean countryside, and He remained there with them and was IMMERSING. (4:2 although Jesus Himself did not baptize, but only His disciples),
    34 For He whom GOD has sent utters the Words of GOD, for He gives the Spirit without measure.
    35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.
    36 Whoever BELIEVES in the Son has eternal life; whoever DOES NOT OBEY the SON shall NOT see life, but the wrath of GOD remains on him. John 3

  • d taylor December 28, 2013 Reply

    Both Southern Baptist and Church of Christ teach a false salvation.
    the baptist add to faith these false teachings Praying a sinners prayer, Inviting Jesus into your heart, Being sorry for your sins, they (southern baptist) also teach the popular lordship salvation which includes: Repentance (Turning from your sins), Promising to serve God(making Christ Lord of their life), Confessing Christ, Believing with a special kind of faith which includes :repentance, perseverance, commitment
    The Church of Christ teaches Baptism, repentance, obedience, commitment etc..
    so basically Church of Christ and Southern Baptist add to the simple act of Faith given by God in the Bible, for a person to receive eternal life.
    this may not be true for all southern baptist but it is true of a great percentage of these churches. take a look at at this link http://www.sbc.org/bfm/bfm2000.asp
    to the SBC website under their, The Baptist Faith and Message, IV. Salvation
    they have this: Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God. Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ and commitment of the entire personality to Him as Lord and Savior.

    Interesting that the only evangelistic book (written to tell unbelievers what they must do to receive eternal life John 20:30,31) in the Bible the Gospel of John never mention baptism, repentance, making Christ lord of a persons life,commitment,etc..
    The only condition given in the Gospel of John is Faith,Belief,Trust that Jesus is the promised Messiah and that believing in Him: that The Christ alone will give eternal life to all who will trust in Him for it. Is the only way to receive eternal life. verse after verse states belief again and again.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
    John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
    John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    John 6:47 I tell you the solemn truth, the one who believes has eternal life.

    John 20:30,31
    20:30 Now Jesus performed many other miraculous signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not recorded in this book.
    20:31 But these are recorded so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

    • SavedByGrace December 28, 2013 Reply

      Matthew 5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your GOOD WORKS and GIVE GLORY to your Father who is in heaven.
      Ephesians 2:8 For by GRACE you have been saved through FAITH. And this is not your own doing; it is the GIFT of GOD, 9 NOT a result of WORKS, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, CREATED in CHRIST JESUS FOR GOOD WORKS, which GOD PREPARED beforehand, that WE SHOULD WALK IN THEM.
      1 Timothy 6:18 They are to do good, to be RICH in GOOD WORKS, to be generous and ready to share,
      2 Timothy 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of GOD, 9 who SAVED us and called us to a holy calling, NOT BECAUSE OF our works but because of HIS OWN purpose and GRACE, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
      2 Timothy 3:14 But as for you, CONTINUE in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the SACRED writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through FAITH in Christ Jesus.
      16 *ALL SCRIPTURE* is breathed out *by GOD* and profitable for TEACHING, for reproof, for CORRECTION, and for TRAINING in righteousness, 17 that the man of GOD may be COMPLETE, equipped for EVERY GOOD WORK. 4:5 As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the WORK of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
      1 Peter 1:14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in ALL your CONDUCT, 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” 17 And if you call on Him as Father who JUDGES impartially ACCORDING to each one’s DEEDS, CONDUCT yourselves with FEAR throughout the time of your exile,
      1 Peter 1:22 Having purified your souls BY YOUR OBEDIENCE to the TRUTH for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding WORD of GOD;
      Ephesians 3:20 Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the POWER at work WITHIN US
      21 to HIM be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

    • Lynn Alan December 28, 2013 Reply

      Are we reading a different gospel of John? Jesus Himself while talking to Nicodemus speaks of baptism:
      “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:5).
      Is it also your contention that we should ignore anything written in the New Testament except what we read in John? Did not Jesus in His prayer for unity pray “also for those who will believe on Me through their (His apostles) word” (John 17:20).

      • d taylor December 28, 2013 Reply

        well i would reply to your questions but they are not letting me post reply’s
        maybe this will be posted.

      • d taylor December 29, 2013 Reply

        because you see the word water you read baptism into this passage. baptism is not mentioned.

        again show me another book of the Bible that makes the claim that it is written to tell people how to have eternal life. The Gospel of John makes that claim

        when it come to telling people how to have eternal life, John says it was written for that very reason, John 20:31 says just that, how can that be any clearer.

        John 20:31 But these are recorded so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

        also on my other reply’s that have not been posted i tried to show where the gift of God is eternal life. Not faith, baptism, obedience, commitment etc..
        all verses below state this:
        Romans 5:15-19

        Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

        1 John 5:11-12
        5:11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
        5:12 The one who has the Son has this eternal life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have this eternal life.

        • SavedByGrace December 29, 2013 Reply

          18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
          19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” Matthew 28

          16 All Scripture is breathed out by GOD and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness 17 that the man of GOD may be complete, equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16

          4 Whoever says “I know Him” but does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
          5 but whoever keeps His word, in him truly the love of GOD is perfected. By this we may know that we are in Him: 6 whoever says he abides in Him ought to walk in the same way in which He walked. 1 John 2

          Or do you presume on the riches of His kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that GOD’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? Romans 2:4

          Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to GOD for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of GOD, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to Him. 1 Peter 3:21,22

          • d taylor December 29, 2013

            Again by your posting of these verses you are telling me you believe that a person receives eternal life by works and not by Faith alone in Christ alone.

            Which is completely opposite of what the Bible teaches.

          • SavedByGrace December 29, 2013

            We receive salvation through the grace of GOD. Yet, we cannot remain passive. It is logical that if one never believes, they will never follow through with obedience. GOD requires obedience. HE has spoken clearly and concisely what He expects from us. We will be judged by every word that came through Jesus & His apostles. We cannot pick and choose which ones to like and believe. All of them agree for GOD is not the GOD of confusion. From Adam & throughout the entire bible, He has always demanded obedience with faith. He would not tell us to repent as if it was an option. He would not tell us to believe Jesus is His only Son if it was just an option. He would not command confession of our sins as though it was a choice. He commands we love our enemies & pray for them. He commands we study His Word. He commands those who seek eternal life to be immersed for/into remission/forgiveness of sins. Jesus’ own words command we be immersed into the grave of water to be cleansed, to rise a new person. I believe His Holy Words- all of them – and I humbly obey in overwhelming thanksgiving for His grace, His Son, His patience, His mercies, His blessings, His love. For as He calls us, so we must answer Him. His Word will be our judge. Therefore we pray for wisdom and understanding as we read His entire bible. Confusing the prideful works of Pharisees & works-based Catholicism with the humble & thankful works of obedient Christians who give all the glory to GOD is completely void of understanding His expressed will.

            Rev 2:4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

            Rev 2:19 “‘I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first. 23…And all the churches will know that I am He who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works.

            I would not want to stand before GOD and tell Him I didn’t believe Him.
            Our works of obedience of His Word is not of ourselves, it is His Holy Spirit living within us. Everyone can accept Him or reject Him. Everyone has free will to obey or not.

  • d taylor December 29, 2013 Reply

    i look at all the verses you posted they are speaking about the discipleship area of a believers life.
    These are not verses telling unbelievers how to receive eternal life.

    look at
    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
    10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

    take a look at verse 10 it says we should, it does not say that a believer will

    also the the gift of God in this verse is connected to saved and not to faith

    look at
    1 Timothy 6:18
    6:18 Tell them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, to be generous givers, sharing with others.

    if you read one more verse (19) you will see this is speaking about treasure for themselves. and not about receiving eternal life

    1 Timothy 6:19 In this way they will save up a treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the future and so lay hold of what is truly life.

    look at this verse below from John Jesus is ask what works (plural) they must do to have eternal life and Jesussays the work (singular) is to believe. where is repentance, baptism, obedience, commitment
    It is not there and can only be added by people who try and fit in works to fit their idea, of what they must do to earn eternal life

    John 6:27,28,29
    27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
    28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
    29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

    • SavedByGrace December 30, 2013 Reply

      Saved only by GOD’s grace.

  • SavedByGrace December 30, 2013 Reply

    Perhaps you should look up the definition of the words “save, saves, saved” and “all”.
    The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear GOD and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man Ecclesiastes 12:13 GOD bless you with complete understanding.

  • Daniel Keeran Msw January 1, 2014 Reply

    What were the Jews told to do in Acts 2:38 to be forgiven for having murdered Jesus? Does the same promise extend to us?

    • d taylor January 1, 2014 Reply

      Acts 2:38 is connected to the sin of the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. That was part of Judaism. look at verse 2:40 in Acts
      Acts 2:40 With many other words he testified and exhorted them saying, “Save yourselves from this perverse generation!”

      the generation Peter is speaking about is the same generation Jesus calls evil generation in Matthew 12
      Matthew 12:39 But he answered them, “An evil and adulterous generation asks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

      Matthew 12:41 The people of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented when Jonah preached to them – and now, something greater than Jonah is here!

      Matthew 12:45 Then it goes and brings with it seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they go in and live there, so the last state of that person is worse than the first. It will be that way for this evil generation as well!”

      Notice the emphasis Jesus places on this evil generation and you see Peter speaking about the same generation in Acts 2:40

      How does a person separate from the judgment of the Sin of The Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

      If They are not a believer, then they (1st ) place their faith in Jesus that he is the promised Messiah that gives them eternal life and then to avoid the judgment of 70 A.D. (Sin of The Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit) they repent and are baptized. That separates the individual from the Judaism that was part of the rejection of the Kingdom offer of Jesus (Sin of The Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit). Acts 2:40 – “Save yourselves from this perverse generation!”

      If a person was already a believer and again has not separated for that evil generation, then they need to, do what is said in Acts 2:38 . They all ready had eternal life but they had not separated from the Judaism and the National Sin of Israel (Sin of The Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit) and this sin is a national sin not an individual sin This sin was committed by the nation of Israel.

      It was the National rejection of the offer of The Kingdom of God to Israel by The Messiah based on the Nation declaring The Messiah to be demon possessed.

      This sin was a one time sin that could only have been committed when Jesus was physically present here of earth.

      Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum has the best information on this sin.

      in Hebrews that is what this book is addressing believers wanting to go back into Judaism. To avoid persecution and then after the persecution is over leaving Judaism again and going back to faith in Christ.

      But if they do that they would again be placing themselves under the judgment of The Sin of The Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit in 70A.D.

      • Lynn Alan January 1, 2014 Reply

        Wow, talk about twisting the Scriptures to your own destruction!

  • Dave Altman January 4, 2014 Reply

    I watched the video of Francis Chan that Mike Kjergaard referenced earlier in the comments. Francis simply said about baptism, “… just do it.” He tied faith and obedience together beautifully.

    What I see in church history is that the Reformation Movement was a reaction to the work righteousness of the Roman church. The Reformers came up with the new theology of “faith only” – which eventually gave birth to the Baptist denomination.

    In their pendulum swing the reformers moved theology from one extreme (work righteousness) to the other (faith only); and took the biblical concept of faith far from New Testament teaching.

    “Faith”, the English word translated from the Greek “pistis” means much more than the modern “faith only” doctrine teaches. The word “faith” has several intrinsic definitions. Faith is “conviction & belief” – but it does not stop at that. This level of belief alone never did and never will save a person. Even Satan’s demons believe in God (James 2:19). And they believe that salvation comes from Jesus’ shed blood! But that belief stops far short of salvation. If a demon was sitting in a revival and the preacher says, “Okay, raise your hand if you believe that Jesus is Lord and Savior.” The demon raises his hand – is he saved? No, he is shuttering in his satanic boots.

    Faith also moves on to imply that a person is at the point of trusting Jesus for salvation. Where the rubber hits the road in terms of the connection between faith and salvation is at the point of doing something about that conviction.

    For a person to hear a sermon and simply say, “Hey, I believe that – guess I’m in, right?” does not cut it biblically speaking. Faith must lead to obedience or it is a dead faith. Another intrinsic dynamic of “pistis” is “obedience.” To believe and to obey cannot be separated in terms of the meaning of “faith.”

    From a Scriptural viewpoint, then, obedience is not a work – it is part and parcel of faith. Paul spoke of “obedience that comes from faith” (Romans 1:5). Peter spoke of “… obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood.” Note that obedience and sprinkling of Christ’s blood are linked – not separated.

    Jesus commanded that we go, make disciples, baptizing them (don’t overlook the participles in Matthew 28:18-20). The disciple making and baptizing are unified in the command to “go!”

    A close examination of the New Testament concept of “faith” (“pistis”) as a whole removes both the “work righteousness” of the Roman church and the superficial interpretations of the “faith only” reformers. It’s time for us to set aside denominational theologies and simply get back to New Testament teaching based on the solid principles of the science of interpretation.

    We’ll discover that faith, repentance and baptism are so fundamentally linked with the blood of Christ, that our differences will fade in light of the Gospel of Christ.

    As uncle Si would say, “Hey Jack, do your own research.” I did! Found out that the true meaning of “faith” is pretty deep. Those dudes in the New Testament understood it – let’s all study it out. Then, just do what God told us all to do and don’t argue about it! If He said, “Be Baptized…” what’s the fuss- just do it, Jack!

    • d taylor January 5, 2014 Reply

      (Dave Altman:For a person to hear a sermon and simply say, “Hey, I believe that – guess I’m in, right?” does not cut it biblically speaking.)

      Where in the Bible do you see a person being given eternal life by hearing a sermon. That is the problem your church has made you blind to the simple truth of the Bible.
      and
      that truth is a person is given eternal life by placing their faith in Jesus, that he is the promised Messiah and that all who trust in Him for eternal life will be given eternal life.

      No where will you find a person receiving eternal life by hearing a sermon and believing the sermon in the Bible.

      The Bible is crystal clear again and again over and over eternal life is received by placing your faith in Christ and not a sermon.

      So you are saying obedience actually gives a person eternal life and not faith (trust).

      Because you have redefine faith to mean obedience to fit your work salvation.

      look up the definition of faith,belief, trust you will not find obedience in the definitions below

      faith fāTH/ noun noun: faith
      1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

      be·lief biˈlēf/ noun noun: belief; plural noun: beliefs
      1.an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.

      trust trəst/ noun noun: trust
      1.firm belief in the reliability, truth, ability, or strength of someone or something.

      • Daniel Keeran Msw January 5, 2014 Reply

        What were the Jews told to do in Acts 2:36-39 to be forgiven for having killed Jesus? Does the same promise of forgiveness extend to everyone everywhere?

        • d taylor January 5, 2014 Reply

          No : because if a person did not participated in the Judaism that committed the sin of the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, they were not under that Judgment and were not part of that and did not need to separate from that perverse generation
          Acts 2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.”

          Acts 2:36-39 is for the house of Israel

          2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know beyond a doubt that God has made this Jesus whom you crucified both Lord and Christ.”

          the Gospel did not go out to the gentiles until after the stoning of Stephen Chapter 8 begins the start of the gospel going out to gentiles

          • Daniel Keeran Msw January 5, 2014

            What did Israel have to do to be forgiven in Acts 2:36-38?

      • David Altman January 6, 2014 Reply

        I was at a concert recently where that happened – A man got up and said all you have to do is believe and your are saved. Then he asked all who believed to raise their hands & say a little prayer. Then he said, “Welcome to the family of God – you are saved.”
        Really! I’ve never seen that in the New Testament.
        My comments, d. Taylor, are simply to encourage all of us to capture the full meaning of “faith.” You study it for yourself – don’t just accept what I’ve said in my comments or what anyone else has said. Do the research, study the Scripture! As I discovered, you cannot separate “believe,” “faith” and “obedience.”

        Obedience is not a work – it is faith’s action and submission; but not a work in the sense that the Law was a work. Don’t dare make obedience to God’s commands a work – it is not, never was and never will be.

        God says that belief in Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection is essential for salvation – I believe what he said.
        God says that confession is essential for salvation – I believe what he said.
        God says that repentance is essential for salvation – I believe what he said.
        God says that immersion into Jesus is essential for salvation – I believe what he said.
        All of this is based on the freely shed blood of Jesus Christ – that’s grace.

        It does not matter what the Baptist preachers or scholars say; and it does not matter what the Church of Christ preachers or scholars say – it’s what God said that stands. And, God said, “Repent and be baptized every one of you into the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sin.”

        God said it, I believe it – that settles it. What a source of peace and joy that is!

  • d taylor January 5, 2014 Reply

    2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 2:39 For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far away, as many as the Lord our God will call to himself.” 2:40 With many other words he testified and exhorted them saying, “Save yourselves from this perverse generation!”

    So are you placing yourself in the Judaism (perverse generation) that had Christ killed.

    ok a question for you what is the condition given in The Gospel of John for a person to receive eternal life

    • Daniel Keeran Msw January 5, 2014 Reply

      So you believe the Jews in Acts 2 were required to repent and be baptized. In John, belief in Christ is required and this included receiving the baptism required of all Israel.

      • d taylor January 6, 2014 Reply

        (Daniel Keeran Msw So you believe the Jews in Acts 2 were required to repent and be baptized.)

        That is what the verse says for forgiveness of your sins. The question is what sins are they being forgiven of is this a receiving eternal life salvation or is this a physical salvation from the judgment of the sin of the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

        verse 2:40 speaks to this

        No way a person can save themselves from going to hell (spiritual salvation).

        As it says in verse 2:40 With many other words he testified and exhorted them saying, “Save yourselves from this perverse generation!”

        But a person can save themselves physically from God’s anger by doing what He ask.

        (Daniel Keeran Msw In John, belief in Christ is required and this included receiving the baptism required of all Israel.)

        you say all of Israel was required to be baptized

        So are you saying all (every Jewish person) was a believer and was baptized

        was the Samaritan women at the well baptized, was she required to repent.

        If that is so then why are they required to be baptized again in Acts

        • Daniel Keeran Msw January 6, 2014 Reply

          The baptism preached in Acts was for all nations beginning in Jerusalem, not before. Those who had received John’s baptism were baptized in Jesus’ name in Acts 19:2-5.

          • d taylor January 6, 2014

            actually the verse Acts 19:2-5 is speaking about John’s disciples.
            So was all of Israel John;s disciple or was this just a group of Jews who had been baptized by John and not every single person in Israel. As i believe you are trying to say (that every person in Israel was baptized by John or Jesus disciples)

            Is the point you are trying make, that baptism is part of a person receiving eternal life and that faith includes Baptism.

            But the facts from scripture is that baptism is part of a believers discipleship and not part of an unbeliever becoming a believer that is only by Faith in Christ (the Gospel of John testifies to this) and that Faith is alone.
            The faith is not or does not need baptism to be effective in giving a person eternal life.

            I am not denying baptism is not a part of a believers life, I do deny that a person must be baptized to have eternal life. The moment a person believes they are sealed forever, never to loose their eternal life in Christ, whether they have been baptized or not.

            what comes first the baptism or faith.

          • Daniel Keeran Msw January 6, 2014

            What is “for the forgiveness of sins” according to Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, and also see 1 Peter 3:21? Did Paul think baptism is part of faith, in Gal.3:26,27 and Col.2:12?

          • Ryan January 7, 2014

            Are you saying that Mark 16:16,17 is not true then?

  • Daniel Keeran Msw January 7, 2014 Reply

    Baptism is part of the gospel that is believed, so if one believes the gospel in Mark 16:15-16, s/he will also be baptized. This is why it says, he who believes not will be condemned.

  • d taylor January 7, 2014 Reply

    Acts 2:38 the baptism was to save the believing Jews from perverse generation
    2:40 With many other words he testified and exhorted them saying, “Save yourselves from this perverse generation!”

    Acts 22:16 same conditions for Paul he was a Jew that was in Judaism

    1 Peter 3:21 gives a person :
    but the pledge of a good conscience to God

    baptism places them in fellowship With God
    ans save them from physical discipline from God

    look at verse 30 Noah was not saved spiritually in the flood. He had already believe and received eternal life.

    He was saved physically from God’s Judgment and

    3:20 after they were disobedient long ago when God patiently waited in the days of Noah as an ark was being constructed. In the ark a few, that is eight souls, were delivered through water

    Galatians 3:26 For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith. 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

    why do you have reason to think this is speaking about water baptism.

    Colossians 2:12 Having been buried with him in baptism, you also have been raised with him through your faith in the power of God who raised him from the dead.

    again why do you think this is speaking about water baptism. the verse above 2:11 is speaking about circumcision and says this circumcision was not performed by human hands and as far as i know, i believe you are promoting a faith plus baptism (by human hands) for eternal life.

    Colossians 2:11 In him you also were circumcised – not, however, with a circumcision performed by human hands, but by the removal of the fleshly body, that is, through the circumcision done by Christ.

  • d taylor January 8, 2014 Reply

    What circumcision was to the Old Testament, people (baptismal regeneration ) have tried to make Baptism the equal in the New Testament. How in Acts in the New Testament “men from Judea” were saying a person can not be saved by faith alone a person also need to be circumcised Acts 15:1-34

    Acts 15:1 Now some men came down from Judea and began to teach the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

    which if a person read Acts 15:1-34 you will see that this false teaching was corrected and faith alone in Christ was proclaimed

    15:8 And God, who knows the heart, has testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 15:9 and he made no distinction between them and us, cleansing their hearts by faith. 15:10 So now why are you putting God to the test by placing on the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear? 15:11 On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they are.”

    Romans 4:1-25 also speaks to this

    Romans 4:3 For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4:4 Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited due to grace but due to obligation. 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is credited as righteousness.

    Romans 4:9 Is this blessedness then for the circumcision or also for the uncircumcision? For we say, “faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.”

    4:10 How then was it credited to him? Was he circumcised at the time, or not? No, he was not circumcised but uncircumcised!

    4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised, so that he would become the father of all those who believe but have never been circumcised, that they too could have righteousness credited to them.

    4:12 And he is also the father of the circumcised, who are not only circumcised, but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham possessed when he was still uncircumcised.

    The same principal applies toward baptism and any other condition a person would try to add to faith.

    a person adding deeds to faith would do well and learn from theses examples and leave/drop their idea of baptismal regeneration, repentance, etc.. and place their faith in Christ for eternal life as Abraham did.

    Again another example in the Bible that states Faith in Christ alone gives a person eternal life.

    • Daniel Keeran Msw January 8, 2014 Reply

      Yes faith alone in Christ, and what is faith? What does faith involve?

    • Lynn Alan March 23, 2014 Reply

      Yet Abraham’s faith was not credited to him until he demonstrated his full trust in God by obedience.

    • LYNN ALAN September 17, 2014 Reply

      You do realize that “faith alone” nor “faith only” is found in any of your Sciptures. In fact, the only time you find the two together is in James 2. The writer, by inspiration, says “not by faith only” (2:24). He makes very clear that faith alone is a dead faith. Faith requires action in order to be alive and acceptable. Abraham’s faith was visible, he got up and went at God’s command. And he sacrificed his son at God’s command. The Israelites faith was visible, God said march around the city of Jericho – and they did all that God commanded – so the walls fell. The times that Jesus commented on great faith, the faith was always visible. It is always faith and obedience together that result in salvation/victory.

  • d taylor January 8, 2014 Reply

    πιστει 57, πιστει 1, πιστεως 94, πιστιν 55, πιστις 36

    faith 195, By faith 16, faithfulness 15, of faith 7, by faith 2, believe 2, believing 2, a faith 1, proof 1, in faith 1, pledge 1

    1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it 1a) relating to God 1a1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ 1b) relating to Christ 1b1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God 1c) the religious beliefs of Christians 1d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same 2) fidelity, faithfulness 2a) the character of one who can be relied on

    from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:-assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity. see GREEK for 3982

    • Daniel Keeran Msw January 9, 2014 Reply

      Paul’s idea of faith includes baptism as per Gal.3:26,27 and Col.2:12.

  • d taylor January 9, 2014 Reply

    The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be ‘dipped’ (bapto) into boiling water and then ‘baptised’ (baptizo) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change. When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism.

    • Daniel Keeran Msw January 9, 2014 Reply

      What verse do you use to explain the meaning of the water baptism you practice?

  • d taylor January 9, 2014 Reply

    Paul is the model for the conversion of Palestinian Jews

    1. Belief for eternal life
    2. Baptism for forgiveness of sins,
    followed by
    3. Gift of the Holy Spirit

    Cornelius is the Gentile model

    1.Belief: immediately brings eternal life, forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
    2. Water Baptism

    10:43 About him all the prophets testify, that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
    10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all those who heard the message.
    10:45 The circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were greatly astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles,
    10:46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
    10:47 “No one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”
    10:48 So he gave orders to have them baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for several days.

    • Daniel Keeran Msw January 10, 2014 Reply

      What does Paul say is the meaning of water baptism for the Gentiles? What scriptures do you use for this?

    • LYNN ALAN September 17, 2014 Reply

      Like Genesis Chapters 1 and 2, where the same creation account is told from two different aspects, Luke in recording the conversion of the first Gentile, Cornelius, he gives the account in two ways. Reading Acts 11, you will discover that Peter is giving the account of Cornelius “in order.” It is Acts 11 that shows salvation was did not precede immersion. Acts 10 is not necessarily in the order of occurrence. Note the following:
      Cornelius sent for Peter as instructed by the angel. The angel told Cornelius that Peter “shall speak words to you by which you will be saved” (Acts 11:14). Verse 15 says, “And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, just as upon us at the beginning.” Thus, we can conclude that the Holy Spirit’s purpose was not redemption. Why? Peter had just begun to speak when the Holy Spirit made His entance – Cornelius and family could not have heard words by which they were to be saved (verse 14). Peter’s “words” in Chapter 10 are out of order. Without the Holy Spirit, Peter and his fellow country men, would not have regarded the Gentiles worthy of the gospel, at least not before they became proselytes to Judaism.
      God through the Holy Spirit placed His stamp of approval on them as they were (uncircumcised). This was Holy Spirit baptism as upon the apostles in Acts 2. Notice Peter had to go all the way to the beginning, another proof that this was not common in all conversions.

  • SavedByGrace January 10, 2014 Reply

    Gen 18:19 For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.” Question: If Abraham failed to keep the way of the LORD, would that have been contributed to him as unrighteousness?
    Romans 2:6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
    Hebrews 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of FAITH, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with Pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
    1 Peter 3:21-22 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to GOD for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of GOD, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to Him.
    Hebrews 5:8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience through what He suffered. 9 And being made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey HIM,
    1 John 2:4 Whoever says “I know Him” but does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
    5 but whoever keeps His word, in him truly the love of GOD is perfected. By this we may know that we are in Him:
    6 whoever says he abides in Him ought to walk in the same way in which He walked.
    Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of ALL nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
    20 teaching them to observe ALL that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
    Even John the baptist knew and understood how he must obey:
    Mark 1:4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
    1 Peter 3:8 Finally, ALL of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.

  • SavedByGrace January 10, 2014 Reply

    John the baptist must be appalled that people would claim him as the “founder of a church” and label themselves with his name.
    Acts 4:11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.
    12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
    Acts 13:25 And as John was finishing his course, he said, ‘What do you suppose that I am? I am not he. No, but behold, after me one is coming, the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to untie.’
    Romans 6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
    6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
    Acts 11:26… And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians.
    Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. 6 Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.

  • d taylor January 10, 2014 Reply

    Peter’s example is extremely clear do you think Peter and Paul held different views or each taught a different way to receive eternal life.

    1:12 Now I mean this, that each of you is saying, “I am with Paul,” or “I am with Apollos,” or “I am with Cephas,” or “I am with Christ.”
    1:13 Is Christ divided? Paul wasn’t crucified for you, was he? Or were you in fact baptized in the name of Paul?
    1:14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,
    1:15 so that no one can say that you were baptized in my name!
    1:16 (I also baptized the household of Stephanus. Otherwise, I do not remember whether I baptized anyone else.)
    1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel – and not with clever speech, so that the cross of Christ would not become useless.

  • Robert W. Smith May 25, 2014 Reply

    Even the apostle Paul said to avoid false doctrines. Have you forgotten the verse that says if any one preaches a different gospel to you other than what we have preached let him be a cursed. So as far as saying we are wrong to argue over doctrines i disagree with you. If it is a false teaching or a false doctrine we need to speak out against it least other are led astray.

    Now that being said i find no fault so far with the Robertson’s doctrine. I my self do not believe baptism is a requirement of salvation. No where in the bible can i find a basis for that. Baptism is supposed to be an outward expression that we as Christians identify with Christ. The bible clearly states that it is Christ blood that brings remission of sins. Until i hear for myself that the Robertson’s are preaching false doctrine … i will not speak against them. I love their boldness and heart for Jesus and the lost.

    • Daniel Keeran Msw May 25, 2014 Reply

      What were the Jews who killed the Messiah told to do to be forgiven in Acts 2:36-41?

      36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

      37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

      38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

      40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

      • Robert W. Smith May 26, 2014 Reply

        If we had to do any outwardly.. (hence works) than that would constitute salvation by works… Salvation is through the saving work of the Lord Jesus … baptism would be a work of righteousness,,, baptism is to show that we identify with the death burial and resurrection of Christ it is not a requirement of salvation although if we want to be obedient and show our love for Him than we should be baptized.

        • Jaqi May 26, 2014 Reply

          IF? Identify? Read verse 38-40 again, out loud, slowly. Pay close attention to each phrase. Then read Jesus’ statement beginning with “If”: John 14:15

        • LYNN ALAN September 17, 2014 Reply

          Do you believe a person must have faith, repent, and/or confess Jesus to be the Christ? If any of these is necessary, then you too, require “works.” When asked “What shall we do…?” Jesus answered “…believe on Him whom He (God) has sent” (John 6:28-29). Belief is a verb showing action, a work. It is here called “a work of God” because He requires it. All three of these are verbs indicating action and thus works. In fact all three are in the active voice in the Greek. Baptism or immersion is almost always in the passive voice, it is not something yo you do it is something done to you.

    • Jaqi May 25, 2014 Reply

      Jesus’ command (not a suggestion): Mat 28:18-20 Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
      Act 22:16    And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and WASH away your sins, calling on His name. [Who/what washes away sins? GOD through the blood of His holy Son shed upon the cross: the water & the blood.]
      Rom 6:3,4    Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
      Col 2:12   having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the powerful working of GOD, who raised Him from the dead.
      1Pe 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to GOD for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
      There is no other gospel. There is no other Way. There is no other Name by which we are saved and whom we are to follow.
      (An excellent read also: Muscle and a Shovel by Michale Shank, Lightning Source Press, An in-depth account of 1 man’s search.)

      • thomas May 26, 2014 Reply

        Saw the above comments but will respond that I read Muscle and a Shovel last year and highly recommend a Google search for “Faith Facts: Questions for Church of Christ members”. These are the questions Muscle and Shovel did not answer..

        • Daniel Keeran Msw May 26, 2014 Reply

          Why don’t you address points made here instead of referring us elsewhere?

          • Jaqi May 26, 2014

            It is amazing that all of GOD’s Word is not believed or respected when He wrote the entire Book. If you read the whole of this page, the faith only position has been addressed countless times. The book recommendation which makes excellent biblical points (similar to this discussion here), was only a suggestion to understand one man’s journey to expand his knowledge and understanding. The church Jesus established is found only in scripture, not in any man’s creed. Salvation is found only in the grace of GOD through His only Son. No scripture can be tossed aside as irrelevant because it does not fit into man’s mold he created for his belief. If a circle is drawn representing GOD’s Grace & Salvation, all scriptures citing what saves us must be placed inside that circle. Mankind is saved by knowledge of GOD’s Word, believing it, allowing it to convict our soul, acting on it by repenting of sins, confessing to others Jesus is the Son of GOD and only Savior King of our lives, immersion in the watery grave to be washed clean by GOD’s grace, rising from that grave – as Jesus arose from the tomb -a new life now in Christ, to live for Him forever. GOD’s will for mankind’s obedience to Him in all things is crystal clear from Gen through Rev. Obedience does not equal prideful works. Woe to those who do not obey! Lord God in heaven, You see, You hear, You answer. Please open our eyes, our minds, our spirits to comprehend Your pure truth in all things. We praise You, we thank You for Your Grace & Son. Forgive us. Lead us in paths of righteousness for Your Name’s sake. In Jesus our Lord. Amen

          • Thomas May 26, 2014

            I can only assume that you are ignorant to the fact that Jaqi exercised his right to direct readers to an outside source, the book Muscle and a Shovel to support his comments. My comment was directed to the book. If you have read the book and Faith Facts: Questions for Church of Christ members you would understand how they tied together. But the simple answer to your question is that I exercise my right the same as Jaqi does.

    • LYNN ALAN September 17, 2014 Reply

      Have you not read the Scriptures? Everyone who was converted in the book of Acts was told to be baptized. Yet, not every conversion mentions faith/belief or repentance or confession. Paul in retelling of his own conversion states he was commanded to “Get up and get yourself immersed and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord” (Acts 22:16). Thr Greek construction indicates that it is the act of submitting to immersion is the “calling on His name.” And Peter agrees, for he says immersion is “the answer of a good conscience toward God” (1 Peter 3:21).
      Paul, in writing to the Christians in Rome, said that immersion is a re-enactment on the believer’s part of the death, burial, and resurrection. It is through immersion into His death that one symbolically contacts the blood of Jesus. Plus, Paul to the Thessalonians says, all who do not obey the gospel are to be “punished with everlasting destruction (i.e., eternal separation from God) from the presence of the Lord…” (2 Thessalonians 1:9). Since we know the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus the Christ, then we can also know that immersion into Christ is how anyone obeys the gospel (Romans 6:1ff).
      Another fact or truth of Scripture is that immersion is how one “gets into Christ,” which, according to the inspired apostle is where all spiritual gifts are found (cf. Ephesians 1:7). Is redemption a spiritual gift? You cannot have redemption without being in Christ, nor can you contact His blood without being immersed into His death.
      One last comment, according to the Commission recorded in Matthew 28, it is through immersion that one’s relationship to the Godhead changes. We are. Immersed into (epi) the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. “Into the name,” here, signifies to come into the possession of. Also, this immersion is humanly admistered, not via the Holy Spirit.

  • Ann Gardner September 16, 2014 Reply

    As Christians (members of the Lord’s church, we do not believe in dancing. How can Duck Dynasty, Sadie Robertson, be on this show and still be a “shining” example of the Lord’s teachings. The costumes, the atmosphere, the language is not appropriate or good for Christians to be around let alone participating in.

    What are some of your thoughts on this?

    Thanks.

    • SavedByGrace September 16, 2014 Reply

      I agree. Some of the euphemisms used for foul language, topics of discussion, etc. are not examples of Christian speech or character. Some, not all of the wives/moms/daughter choice of dress are not in keeping with modest choices, desiring to be of the world & show their curves. I did not notice this in the first shows but as I kept watching, it became obvious. I seldom watch now. I admire their commitment to stand together as a Christian family when attacked. Only wish they would adopt a more conservative approach because they do have many humorous episodes almost everyone can enjoy.

    • SavedByGrace September 17, 2014 Reply

      Also, Just viewed Sadie Robertson on Dancing With The Stars. Very sad example for Christians as was Sarah Palin’s daughter. Anyone watching these girls can see plainly they are using their flesh to entice. Pray for them, for their parents and their congregation’s elders to have wisdom.

  • sooolost September 17, 2014 Reply

    Sooooo many that handle the Bible like nitro glycerin. They dont how illiterate they are because they haven’t studied it enough. They know just enough to blow up

  • Jaqi September 17, 2014 Reply

    Dear Mr. Rhoades, In your blue ad box, you mention pastors and church leaders. Would you mind taking time to address the Baptist’s position re elders considering the following scriptures? Thank you. ELDER: Strong: G4166: poimēn a shepherd (literally or figuratively): – shepherd, pastor.
    Ekklesia: called out, church, assembly, congregation

    And when they had appointed elders [Plural] [Strong G4245: presbuteros: older] for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they had believed. Acts 14:23

    When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders [Plural], and they declared all that GOD had done with them. Acts 15:4

    On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders [Plural] were present. Acts 21:18

    Let the elders [Plural] who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.1 Timothy 5:17

    Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders [Plural] of the church, and let them [Plural] pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. James 5:14

    So I exhort the elders [Plural] among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed: shepherd the flock of GOD that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as GOD would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. 1Peter 5:1,2,4

    Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders [Plural]. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “GOD opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” 1Peter 5:5

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