Cornerstone Baptist Church of Chuluota, FL has an interesting way of exposing false teachers to their congregation… they post them on their website. You can see the latest list here.
Making the list (at least today) is Harold Camping, Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn, Rick Warren, and Bill Hybels.
The site is complete with youtube links and biblical refutes. Gotta love that.
But don’t worry… “more to be added continually’. And if you have a problem, you can always call Cornerstone at 971-SOULS.
Thoughts?
Todd
I’m sorry… and why don’t people want to go to church anymore? It took all of five minutes for me to find things on their website that I could use scriptures to refute.
1 Corinthians 1:12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” 13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
(Of course I understand that by making this comment, I’m actually doing what they did… I’m a complex guy)
What a great church to avoid.
Basically, what Peter said.
I’ll go out on a limb here and say there are some people on that list I wouldn’t want people to read or listen to. It is kind of an “out there” thing to post on your website. I might address these things in private conversation. But are people really not going to church because of what a Baptist church in Florida is posting are their website?
Wow… I get the whole importance of being aware of false teachers, and I’m not downplaying the importance of proper doctrine. However, it doesn’t take genius or maturity to point out error. It does take a mature Christian leader to identify that there are parts of the Body of Christ that has different functions. Not all can be an eye. Then, it takes even more maturity in how to interact with another ministry that has a completely different function. No wonder as to why the Bride is a dismembered mess.
Amen to that.
“The site is complete with youtube links and biblical refutes. Gotta love that.
But don’t worry… ‘more to be added continually’. And if you have a problem, you can always call Cornerstone at 971-SOULS.”
Well, since you asked; looks to me like you’re holding the church up to make fun of it. A little ODM-ish, no?
Would you claim me if I was?
I’m afrai I have no say in that; I not an ODM.
I’m afraid I have no say in that; I’m not an ODM.
Oops, sorry for the dupe. Not sure what happened.
I’m disappointed, Ken. I thought you were my ticket in.
*hehe* I hear they’re a nasty sort there bubba.
Todd,
Here’s a better question, who is more faithful to God’s Word and and what He has commanded Christians and churches regarding false doctrine and false teachers?
A) Cornerstone Baptist Church of Chuluota, FL or
B) Peter Drucker the Founder of Leadership Network.
Here’s what the Bible says on this matter:
“I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive” (Romans 16:17–19)
“For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth.” (Titus 1:10–14)
Here’s Peter Drucker’s view of doctrine and theology:
>>”pastoral churches.” Their purpose is not to perpetuate a particular liturgy or maintain an existing institutional form. Instead, they’re asking what my business friends would call the marketing question: “Who are the customers, and what’s of value to them?” They’re more interested in the pastoral question (“What do these people need that we can supply?”) than in the theological nuances (“How can we preserve our distinctive doctrines?”).
These churches are growing partly because the younger people need pastoring and not just preaching, and partly because, very bluntly, people are dreadfully bored with theology. They can’t appreciate the subtleties. And I sympathize with them. I taught religion; I didn’t teach theology. I’ve always felt that quite clearly the good Lord loves diversity. He created 2,500 species of flies. If he had been like some theologians I know, there would have been only one right specie of fly. But there are 2,500!
Pastoral churches appreciate the importance of diversity.<<
That quote can be read in context here http://www.christianitytoday.com/le/1989/spring/89l2014.html?start=4
Seems to me that Drucker, and his current disciples (aren't you one of them Todd?) have run afoul of what God has clearly commanded in His word while Cornerstone Baptist Church of Chuluota, FL is taking these commands seriously and putting them into practice.
If you're going to fault them for obeying Romans 16:17–19 and Titus 1:10–14 then you've aligned yourself against God.
Chris,
Peter Drucker was not the founder of Leadership Network.
Nice try though.
Todd
I think the link below will suffice to demonstrate that Bob Buford believes that Leadership Network would not exist were it not for Peter Drucker and that Drucker is the father of the ideas marketed by Leadership Network.
http://www.pursuantgroup.com/leadnet/advance/nov05o.htm
Oh and by the way. That link goes to a Leadership Network webpage not an ODM site.
Doug Pagitt, who used to be employed by Leadership Network tells wonderful stories about the conversations that he regularly had with Peter Drucker at Leadership Network. The way Doug tells the stories you’d almost believe that Drucker had his own office there. Hmmmm.
Gotcha Chris. Peter Drucker was NOT the founder of Leadership Network as you said he was.
For the record… you were corrected, and didn’t take time to admit you had the facts wrong…
I’m not arguing with someone like that.
Proverbs 19:19 seems to implicate that you may have ‘aligned yourself against God’.
Todd
(Wow… that was easy. And no… I won’t be commenting any further to you on this post.)
Todd,
There are organizational founders and there are ideological founders. Drucker is NOT the organizational founder of Leadership Network, and I didn’t say that he was. But, co-founder, Bob Buford is very candid about the fact that Peter Drucker is the ideological founder of Leadership Network. Here’s a quote from the Leadership Network site that I linked to above (and I can provide many many more).
>>Leadership Network would not be the same-in fact, might not exist at all-were it not for Peter Drucker.
Before Bob Buford and Fred Smith Jr. co-founded Leadership Network in 1984, Buford consulted Drucker for advice. As a testimony to Drucker’s profound influence on Leadership Network, Buford has observed, “Peter Drucker is the ‘intellectual father’ of most all that guides my approach to philanthropy. I’ve long since ceased trying to determine what thoughts are mine and which come from Peter.”<<
Bob Buford himself says he can't tell which thoughts are his and which thoughts come from Peter Drucker.
You can try to quibble with words with me but the fact remains that Drucker IS the intellectual founder and father of Leadership Network (that's Buford's view not my interpretation) and Drucker's anti-doctrinal views are embedded in the organization AND the methods taught by Leadership Network.
Maybe you could prove me wrong and repudiate Drucker's views by explaining to everyone how Cornerstone Baptist Church of Chuluota, FL is setting a good example for the rest of the body of Christ on how to use technology to warn the church about false teachers and false doctrine and commend them for their innovative obedience to Romans 16:17–19 and Titus 1:10–14. Then you could also encourage all the pastors who read your blog to do something similar on their church website.
I've got money that I'm willing to bet, that says you will not do that. And I think the reason you won't is because you're deeply immersed in the ideas of the Idealogical Founder of Leadership Network.
Said Bob Buford of Peter Drucker, “He’s the brains, I’m the legs.”
And, Ken… btw… you were right.
This is sad.. The only good church to attend is a
Reformed Baptist Church. Fresh wind could not blow through that place even if you opened the windows.
What a waste of man hours and space…cheesy too.
When Christians argue Satan laughs. We sure are easily distracted from our original purpose.
The Best Teacher is God Himself.
I am not defending this church in Chuluota, FL. After going through the list posted on their website and briefly reading the above posts, the question I have is: How should church leaders follow Paul’s instruction to the Ephesian elders to warn the church of those who are “speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them”(Acts 20:28-30) in a day which information, teaching and broadcasts available 24/7 at a click of mouse, remote, or touch screen?
I doubt if I’ll be able to respond before the day’s end to any comments or thoughts.
Crazy sad. This is a main reason why people could care less about the church. (And yes I know how some will respond ‘it is because of peoples sin’)
In many minds Christian = Hate
Agreement in principle? Yes
Agreement in publication? No
I hope their site gets lots of visits. How can I get on it? I am Mad Pastor. My website is http://www.madpastor.com. Perhaps people will go there and learn about me.
the idea is good, i think, even if the execution is flawed. not everyone has the time, knowledge, or strength of faith (or even money for all those books!)at this point to discern false teaching for him/herself. not that this can replace a personal mentorship, but many people don’t have that vertical relationship with someone in their church who can steer a new Christian away from questionable teaching. you’ve got to start with the bible, but then many people look for additional resources such as blogs, online sermons, and books.
if you weren’t raised as a Christian, it’s easy to see “God” or “Christian” on something and trust it as you’ve trusted God because you’re just oblivious to what probably seems like splitting hairs at the time.
people need guidance and one-on-one is probably better, but not everyone is going to search that out, but they shouldn’t be left on their own.
You all might find this interesting, the pastor of this church, David Downs, was arrested today for 15 counts of child molestation. I just ran across this blog and thought you should know.
http://www.orlandocriminals.com//Mugshots/Rutherford_david_downs/1627174-e02198c7205d85b4be1f2816839b123f
Rutherford David Downs is accused of two charges of sexual battery of a child under 12 and 13 charges of lewd and lascivious molestation of a child under 12 – Those who point fingers at others usually have an ulterior motive….
This is very sad to me. I have visited this church a couple of times and we ran anyway as quick as we could. Their whole basis and purpose (Cornerstone Church) is to let others know of false teachings and that THEY are the only ones who are following God.
I know some people that call this church their home church. They have to be hurt with the news that their previous pastor was arrested. It has to make them question why and what their belief in God is based on. Some Christians follow man and others follow God. Hopefully as a result of these events, will help those people that are still there to seek God and place their faith in Him and not in man.
Pray for the victims and families that were affect by Mr. Downs actions that they will receive healing and some how find God in this mess.
One of my best friends has been a member of this church for years which has resulted in numerous conversations between us concerning some of Cornerstone’s premises. I do have some theological differences with this church, e.g. Calvinism, calling brothers false if they have not overcome their fearful proclivities to not Evangelize, being overly dogmatic concerning Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Coptic, etc; however I would consider those differences peripheral and not central. I do agree with aggressive evangelism as I carry out door to door evangelism regularly and occasional open-air preaching; however, my approach tends to be viewed as significantly more gentle than theirs. Although I also have some methodology differences with this church (such as being imbalanced in my opinion concerning some of the more harsh attributes of the Godhead); I treat them the same as I do with other brothers who I consider to have an imbalance the other way (God’s soft attributes) and who are somewhat derelict in their duties at Gospel sharing in my view; I simply pray for God to help me be longsuffering with them . Ephesians 4: 2 “with all humility and gentleness, with patience, accepting one another in love… 32 And be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving one another, just as God also forgave you in Christ. Ephesians 5:21 submitting to one another in the fear of Christ.” My friend (whom accepted Christ largely on my witnessing to him) has grown spiritually under the teaching of this church, for which I am thankful and have joy. It is always tragic when Satan manages to take down one of God’s Shepherds, but as Christians, the most important things we can do is pray that the “Good News” will not be compromised in the Orlando area, that Cornerstone’s new pastor will faithfully serve the Lord, and evangelize to combat any confusion unbelievers may have about Salvation. This ordeal has also encouraged me to examine my own heart, First Timothy 6: 11 “Now you, man of God, run from these things; but pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance, and gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight for the faith; take hold of eternal life, to which you were called and have made a good confession before many witnesses.”
I’d just like to say that most of you, sorry all of us here are sinners, and the Bibles most known writer, Paul had committed much worse than Mr. Downs. I’m not justifying what he allegedly did, just pointing out the fact, that likely most of you hear fornicate with your minds, probably cheat on your wifes – and will deny to the death that you have done so – and still want to come off like we should think you, yourselves are holier than thou. I know I’m a real piece of work, and have done many things I am not proud of, nor is God of me. But, the lie is you guys. Trying to act as if you are sinless, and your sins are of less meaning than Mr. Downs. I feel sorry for him, and hope if he did do something horrible, that he gets a lifetime of help, but I’ll leave the judgement to God, not the hippocrite behind the pulpit, like Mr. Rhodes above, and the majority of you who posted here.