Can a practicing homosexual be a Christian?

I’ve said for a long time that this debate on homosexuality is not going away anytime soon.

But this article headline caught my eye.

It asks a very pointed question… well… actually it doesn’t ask the question.  It just gives an answer:  Practicing homosexuals CAN NOT be Christians.

Here are the six points.  You can read more detail here…

1.  To call oneself an authentic Christian and remain a practicing homosexual is a direct contradiction of biblical teaching and contrary to the “abundant life” promised by Jesus.

2. Practicing homosexuality is most definitely sinful and contradicting biblical teaching on God’s order for human relationships and family.

3. Homosexuality is not simply another “alternative lifestyle.”

4. All of us are born with a fallen nature that gives us a tendency to do wrong.

5. There is a major distinction between people’s behavior and their race.

6. The cause of homosexuality is complex, yet there are common, agreed-upon contributing factors.

Read the article, and let me know your thoughts.

Is this a logical approach, or so you see holes in this debate?

And… take a minute to answer the question:  Can a practicing homosexual be a Christian?  Yes or No?

I’d love to hear your thoughts!  Leave a comment below…



  • jackpickelack June 11, 2013 Reply

    C’mon, Todd. What did y ou expect from “CHARISMA NEWS”?! Can practicing gossips, gluttons, manipulators, liars, etc. be Christians?

    • Steve June 11, 2013 Reply

      Can practicing adulterers be Christians?

      • pietrosquared June 11, 2013 Reply

        I think we should get together and make a list of things you must not do to be righteous in God’s sight… then we will tell everybody that if they don’t follow all 600+ of those rules… they are not right in God’s sight…

        …oh wait… that’s already been tried…

  • pietrosquared June 11, 2013 Reply

    I would add that it might be true (but I’m not saying it…) that any person practicing pride is not able to practice Christianity… you know… the kind of pride that says I know who can be a Christian and who can’t…

    Sad to know that if I’m wrong about even one little thing that I’m damned.

    • Dave June 11, 2013 Reply

      Where did you her that being wrong in one little thing will get you damned?! That is so far from the truth that is in the Bible. I John 1:9 We agree with God about our wrong. He forgives us and cleans out all the wrong! His power saves us, not our perfect performance! That is grace!


  • Sue June 11, 2013 Reply

    First two comments do a great job of making the case for me!

  • Jack Warren June 11, 2013 Reply

    Todd, I usually find your articles helpful. I find this one to be very inconsistent with your message. I usually pass on your newsletter to our staff, but not this one. The blanket statement ” a practicing homesexual cannot be a christian” is a dangerous and careless statement. We should be asking, can a practicing sinner be a chrsitian, or can a person who struggles to the point of justifying a sin be a christian.

    • pietrosquared June 11, 2013 Reply

      The answer is clear: NONE of us can be righteous… remember?

      Fortunately, that righteousness thing was already accomplished on our behalf.

      We, foolish Galatians…

    • Todd Rhoades June 11, 2013 Reply

      Hey Jack,

      I think you read my posting of this article wrong. I didn’t say I agreed. I simply asked if you all did.

      I’m a fighter not a lover.



  • Chap June 11, 2013 Reply

    I think the key word is can a “practicing” insert sin be a Christian. If by practicing you mean, can I openly, proudly, affrim gossip as a lifestyle choice and also ask my fellow brothers and sisters to openly, proudly affirm the sin of gossip in my life — then yes, you cannot be a practicing gossiper and a Christian. Galatians 5:21

  • Mike Clinton June 11, 2013 Reply

    Of course a practicing homosexual can be a Christian. How ignorant to think anything else.

    How can a glutton be a practicing Christian? Have you seen the obese leaders in the Church in America?

    How can gossips be Christians? Liars? Adulterers? Sinners?

    Use some logic. Jesus came to seek and save the LOST – everyone. You can be a practicing homosexual and be a Christian but you would be a sinful Christian.

    It’s amazing to me how much actual HATE so many “Christians” have towards homosexuals. I would say that those haters should really examine their own hearts because you should be known by your love… not hate.

  • Dave June 11, 2013 Reply

    “If you love me you will keep my commandments.” – Jesus

    “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
    I Corinthians 6:9-11

    • jack June 11, 2013 Reply

      …and your point is…?

    • CD June 11, 2013 Reply

      So none of us are going to heaven?

  • James June 11, 2013 Reply

    Hello Everyone:
    Way to go you folks. I loved your comments! For the most part you brought to the table that our life with God is all about GRACE…FORGIVENESS…ATONEMENT…RECONCILITION.
    I’ll add one more to the list that one brother said about 600 cannots & don’ts.
    Can a practicing legalist be a Christian? Can a practicing alcoholic be a Christian? Can a hypocrit be a Christian?
    WRONG QUESTIONS in the first place. It’s not about ME practicing anything. It’s about God accepting ME right where I AM AT.
    The better question is this: Does God love the practicing Homosexual, adulterer, fornicator, drunkard. Does God weep over his children who are destroying themselves with hatred, abuse, bombs, mutiliation of their own kind, starvation, child-prostitution.
    Come on, it’s not about ME, and its all about Our God. Love Wins, folks! And if that ain’t enough, then we’re all in the toilet bowl.
    The problem is that we don’t live around that kind of love enough to see it’s effect (EXCEPT), when we look into the life and “eyes” of Jesus.
    Let it GO! Homosexuals are just as much God’s beloved as me, you or anyone else.

    • Paulette June 19, 2013 Reply

      You’re wrong, G-d’s right. G-d loves his people Israel. He also used their enemies to punish and enslave them because they refused to repent. He will NOT be mocked by your continuing in sin and claiming that you are serving him. He does not know you, no matter what you will claim to him. REPENT: I CORINTHIANS 6:9-11

  • Steve Long June 11, 2013 Reply

    I don’t think anyone who ‘practices’ any particular sin can inherit eternal life. Paul asks the question, Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin [a]resulting in death, or of obedience [b]resulting in righteousness?
    The whole object of forgiveness and grace is so that each day we can have a new fresh pure start. We confess yesterday and ask for strength for today. Repentance means that I don’t like the effect of sin on me mentally physically or spiritually and I do not wish to be it’s slave anymore. A person may wrestle with sin issues for the rest of their life but to practice sin suggests that there is no repentance for it let alone insight about what sin is and how it wrecks us up. Paul is horrified that someone may think the ‘grace’ umbrella covers deliberate, willful, practiced sin. He says, “By no means..,.”

  • Dave June 11, 2013 Reply

    Well, in response to your first comment it would be that Jesus loves the people at Charisma just as much as he loves you and me. Dismissing a point of view because of the source is not gentle or respectful.

    In response to several other comments, it seems that we are willing to accept what God says in unacceptable because we are broken, had a bad childhood or are, for some other reason, incapable of acting in obedience to the clear teaching of scripture. We all sin. We all fall short. Even so, we are all called to speak the truth in love, and to declare the whole council of God – not just the parts that are easy or with which we agree. I have several good friends who were once fully engaged in the gay lifestye, but have left that because of their obedience to Christ. It was a battle for them, just like sexual purity is a battle for most people with a heartbeat. Just like overcoming an addiction is a battle. Just like honesty and integrity can be a battle. The battle is not the issue. Being conformed to the image of Christ is the issue. Is it happening? Is there an increase in the fruit of the Spirit in our lives? Are our feet pointed toward God or away from God?

    So, preach the word, love all people, call them to a deeper level of living a God-honoring lifestyle. That is my point.

    • Brian June 12, 2013 Reply


  • Dave June 11, 2013 Reply

    And when I say “in response to your first comment”, I do not mean you, Jack, but the first comment on the blog. Depending on which Jack you are, I might ask if censorship is Christian, but I do not believe you have said more than “Amen” and asked what my point is. Initially, I thought the verses said enough.

  • Dave June 11, 2013 Reply

    Actually, CD, the Good News is that all the redeemed will go to Heaven!

  • Pastor Ian June 12, 2013 Reply

    The quick answer is no, a practicing homosexual cannot be a Christian. Add to that practicing any sin where there is no conviction of the Holy Spirit, no shame, no desire to walk with Scripture.

    The key word is practice. A careful examination of John’s first letter will provide sufficient support that Jesus does not want us to sin. That includes all the sins listed by the people commenting above. The goal is NOT to sin. Paul was clear as someone above posted that we do not sin to show how wonderful God’s grace is. We walk in the Light as a demonstration of how powerful God is to keep us from sin. There are too many leaders in the church today that practice “safe” sin. Gluttony, gossip, anger, etc. and brush those off as common among people. Again, John is clear that the expectation is to stay far from the line of sin not to be saved, but because we are saved. 1 Jo. 2:1 says, “I am writing these things to you so you may not sin.” Sin here is a verb. The Holy Spirit through John is telling us not to commit a sinful act, not to have a sinful thought, He is telling us to be perfect. But he just said in 1:8 and 10, that if we say we have no sin, we’re deluded. This is why verb tense is so important in Scripture. This is in the aorist tense indicating a single point in time. He is saying don’t commit individual acts of sin. BUT since you will, God made a way to cleanse us through the blood of Christ who John calls the Advocate in v. 2.

    You might be thinking, Is there a cut off limit? Is there a number of times I can get away with? What’s the difference between these sins and a lifestyle of sin? If you have to ask, you don’t get it. We need to agree with God about sin. The point of is not to get as close to the line of sin as you can, but to stay far from it.

    I would think everyone would agree that homosexuality is sin, but there are likely people that disagree. The real point is to show people the love of Christ and teach those who contradict Scripture in the spirit of Titus 1:9.

    • Dave June 12, 2013 Reply

      Amen and AMEN!!!

    • Dave June 12, 2013 Reply

      All scripture is God breathed and is profitable. . . .

  • Alberto Medrano June 12, 2013 Reply

    Maybe at first, but in time, no. Homosexual practice, like other sexual sin, is not condoned in scripture. And no matter how much culture changes, or what liberal scholars may claim, there is no excuse or justification to permit homosexual behavior as a follower of Christ. Here’s a small thing I wrote, “Jesus and Homosexuality”,

    • pietrosquared June 12, 2013 Reply

      Gluttony and greed are also not condoned in scripture… I wonder if many people have put as much energy into decrying the practices of those sins as they have into decrying homosexuality. I think not. In fact… those particular sins are often celebrated in the church, are they not?

      • Alberto Medrano June 12, 2013 Reply

        I’m with you on that. I’ve been vocal about health and wellness in the church. I believe gluttony is the socially acceptable sin in the American church. So, here it is, just because gluttony is social acceptable, does that mean then that all sinful activity should be acceptable. No. That’s illogical.

        • Dave June 12, 2013 Reply

          Well said!

  • James June 12, 2013 Reply

    Hi Alberto;
    Nice apologetics. I would ask one question. Would you please quote me one chapter and verse of Jesus talking about homosexuality as being a sin, not being a follower of his?
    NOT Paul, but Jesus! Since Jesus is the one we’re looking to, please don’t put Paul’s words in Jesus’ mouth.

    • Leonard Lee June 12, 2013 Reply

      James, one only has to look at what a first century Rabbi believed to know Jesus’ take on homosexuality. He did not violate or do away with the law which forbids the sin of homosexuality. This argument is really not valid is one wants to really try to understand what Jesus believed. He believed the Law.

    • Dave June 12, 2013 Reply

      So you are going to make an argument from silence? If Jesus didn’t say it then we are good to go forward without guilt or a need to stop the behaviors that the Bible calls sin? That is what I thought before I got saved! After salvation many things that I thought were ok were no longer ok and this was before I even found the verses that would convict me of those specific actions and thoughts!

    • Alberto Medrano June 12, 2013 Reply

      Thanks. I got a question for your question. Tell me where Jesus talked about incest, bestiality, and pederasty as being a sin? Just being Jesus didn’t single out a sexual sin from the law he upheld did not mean he condoned it.

  • Chuck June 12, 2013 Reply


    Galatians 5:19-21.

  • James June 12, 2013 Reply

    WEll Dave;
    You’d better make an argument for silence because there’s a lot of BULL out there being called Christianity and just plain can’t be verified as what Jesus would endorse.
    What does the Psalms say about adding to and subtracting. If Jesus didn’t say it then why didn’t He?
    He talked more about the corruption of money, ignoring the poor, homeless than He did about the so called BIG sins American Christianity would like to capitalized on.
    And has it made a better America with all the ranting and raving about “sin”?
    When we reduce Christianity to morality, they is ISN”T Christianity any more. It’s something else and certainly isn’t what Jesus advocated and died for.
    He died for the reconcilitation of everything we lost in the Garden. Not to establish another religion based on do’s and don’ts.
    Too we continually lose the big picture and settle for those things so easily judged.
    I think its also interesting for all the protest, sin still seems to flourish. And still funnier, it flourishes very well “in” the church and especially, it seems, among the clergy.
    Stop making excuses and rest and trust God is working it all out. Stop getting vein popping upset with the world, the church, homosexuals, disobedient teens, etc.etc.
    You don’t win, when your angry or attacking. And that’s all I see.
    Trying to be something and portray something we’re not.
    We’re saved, by faith, but that salvation is from ourselves, and because of God, not anything I do.

    • Dave June 12, 2013 Reply

      James, the only one I see on this particular blog who seems to be “angry and attacking” is you. I will not be making any arguments from silence. Making statements that are not supported by Scripture is what has caused much of the division in the Body of Christ. I will stick with the Word. You are right about there being many things that happen in Jesus’ name that he would not endorse. He didn’t speak to every topic because he only spoke what his Father told him to speak. Silence on God’s part is not an endorsement or a “no.” I believe that in the Bible God has given us what we need to know and love him. He says we are to love one another just as he has loved us. He says we are to serve one another. He says we are to go into all the world and preach the Good News. He says we are to teach others to observe everything he has commanded us. If we do that we will be so busy that we won’t have time to spend endless hours debating issues that some would like to make the center of what it means to be a Christian. On some things the Bible is very clear, leaving no room for debate. On other issues, the bible does not make a clear statement. This is where liberty comes in. Whatever you think about these things keep between you and God – check out Romans 14.

      If you want to know what Jesus was for and against and you believe the Scriptures to be accurate, then I would encourage you to read Matthew chapters 5-7 over and over until you understand the view that Jesus had on all the topics that he covered there. I’m sure this will influence how you make decisions about other topics he does not cover there. His words together with the rest of the words in the Bible are our roadmap for living in a way that honors him.

      Blessings as you seek his ways for your daily life.

  • James June 12, 2013 Reply

    That’s an interesting take, but by your application, then what parts did Jesus observe, that we don’t today.
    Mmmm! Circumcision! Mmmm Sabbath! Mmm! Women as people not property. Mmmm! Seems there’s a few law things Jesus CHANGED! CHANGED! We messed up. The Jews Messed it up. We continually MESS it up.
    So I think Leonard you need to be very careful about applying the “law” thing too far.
    Also, we continually confuse culture mores with spiritual continuity. Which is what you’re doing.
    The early Christians didn’t have a problem changing the Sabbath laws. Mmm! Jesus talked more about Sabbath habit than he did homosexuality. Oh, my another silence in scripture.
    Please be careful when you mix apples and oranges, it just doesn’t make a very nice fruit salad.
    One more for the road. Since when did we as believers become keepers of the law and not doers?
    It seems today’s Christians are more Pharisees than believers in “The Way.”
    I can’t disagree with you more on your logic. It just has too many holes in it.
    So does mine, but I can live with my perspective because it challenges me to love, not point fingers and judge.

    • pietrosquared June 12, 2013 Reply

      And… I hate to bust some bubbles here, but there are PLENTY of people who do not think the Bible means what you think it means about homosexuality… Some of the original words are problematic…

      I’ll rely on grace and the love of God… the rest of you can do battle with karma (the law) if you wish.

    • Alberto Medrano June 12, 2013 Reply

      Hello James,
      Grace isn’t permission to do whatever one wants. It’s an enablement to walk away from a life of sin towards wholeness in Jesus. In regards to sexual sin, which includes homosexual practice, it means to reject those behaviors and to be sexually pure. When one shares how a behavior is sinful, it is not to condemn but rather it is to help. Please read my document, and you’ll see that Jesus, Paul, before the law and after it, from old covenant to new covenant, from genesis to revelation, homosexual behavior is declared as sinful. The church, as followers of Jesus, are to love all people despite their sexual orientation and beliefs, and share with them what it means to follow Jesus. In that conversion process of conforming, of sanctification, there’s no way one could remain in the kingdom and still practice a sexual behavior Jesus rejected.

      • pietrosquared June 12, 2013 Reply

        Sorry, but no.

        Grace = unmerited favor. Don’t add anything to it.

        • Alberto Medrano June 12, 2013 Reply

          I’m disturbed and saddened at how quick you are to deny God’s word, and Jesus’ call to holiness. It shows to everyone here that you and James have yet to present a valid argument from scripture. Dismissing others claims is not a well built case. It is apparent you have yet to do the study yourself and have relied on cultural opinion. And yes, grace is unmerited favor. But, you can’t own or control it. God gives it to whomever God wants. And it is shown by how one lives. When one continues willfully in a sexual behavior that Jesus considered sinful, it becomes obvious that the individual has rejected God’s grace and rebelled against God.

          • pietrosquared June 12, 2013


            I am not denying God’s word. I am properly defining a word. “Grace”: Unmerited favor. End of definition. You said grace was “an enablement to walk away from a life of sin towards wholeness in Jesus.” I believe you are creating a definition to make your point. It is not a bad thing to walk away from a life of sin. On the contrary. But that’s not what grace is. Grace is, simply, unmerited favor. I am not dismissing your claim or argument, merely your definition of the word grace.

            I think you are putting words/thoughts into my mouth/mind…

            As for scripture… I offer you the book of Galatians… the whole thing will do.

        • Alberto Medrano June 12, 2013 Reply

          Paul also wrote 1 Corinthians 6:9-20.

          • James June 12, 2013

            Ha! This is great. We can fling scriptures at each other all day.

            It all depends on how you frame your God!
            Is He a benevolent, kind, forgiving, long suffering God. Who will do anything to save you from yourself.
            Or is He a God who counts how many times you sin, and what kind of sins you’re committing.
            Have fun with that one.
            Blessings Alberto

          • Dave June 12, 2013

            I don’t think you know anything about my ways or from where I am coming. I don’t believe I marginalize people, but I am feeling pretty marginalized by you. It sounds like you are turning freedom into license and since you have taught the Scriptures for 50 years, I don’t need to tell you where that is found. God loves people right where they are, but he loves them too much to leave them there. I believe we are to love them fully as well and call them to a life of obedience as Jesus commanded just before he returned to the Father. If all we see is the good, and we don’t speak against evil. then evil is free to grow and expand and truth gets replaced by personal opinion. Our brokenness will always choose comfort over doing what God asks. To receive Grace and then use it to do whatever I want is an indication that I have not understood Grace at all. It is unmerited favor, but the unmerited favor revolutionizes the life of the one who receives it and he or she wants to do what pleases God. Grace is unmerited favor that rocks our world and changes us into the image of Christ. Being conformed to his likeness is the process that God works in us.

          • Alberto Medrano June 12, 2013

            I think before we get into debates with other Christians we should ask what they believe about scripture. If one expresses a disregard over scripture, no matter how long they’ve been in church or led or taught, then they’d just no way our arguments will work. Unfortunately, they’be been misled and are blinded.

          • Dave June 12, 2013


          • james June 12, 2013

            Dave and Alberto;
            And that we can agree upon. Blindness is contagious, especially when you don’t research the scriptures in the original language and only accept the dogma of your denomination, or the filter you choose to look through.
            And Jesus wept! He tried convincing Nicodemus and others, but they didn’t see it either.
            Don’t close your eyes and heart because it’s whats been handed you.

        • Alberto Medrano June 12, 2013 Reply

          Oh man. Well, u think it’s good to leave at that. Rejecting scripture again. Funny thing is I havent even used old testament passages. Good is graceful. But, for those who intentionally and habitually rebel through their conduct…there’s no use arguing with you. I can’t with someone who has rejected the teachings of Christ.

          • pietrosquared June 12, 2013

            You’ve painted me with a broad and incorrect brush, so… never mind.

  • James June 12, 2013 Reply

    Hi Alberto;
    Do you mean to say you’re ruled by guilt? Oh my!
    Hebrews was quite plain that the works of law could not remove a consciousness of sin, only grace.
    So are you feeling guilty most of the time?
    Wouldn’t that say something about good news, or is it bad news.
    And getting rid of the sins the Bible calls sin….that must be a full-time job.
    I mean just getting angry, as Jesus put it, at a brother makes you liable for the fires of Hell. Wow!
    Better not go outside, there’s too much turmoil, conflict and down right bad stuff out there.
    Alberto, I can respect your heart, sincerely.
    But my focus is on the Good News, Grace, forgiveness, repentance (yes of course), but get your life IN God, not on what you’re doing wrong all the time.
    Where’s the focus on you or God? If it’s on your sin, it’s on you and only you. And the harder you try the more tempted or harder it gets.
    Refocus your life on God’s goodness, love, faithfulness, grateful for his eternal mercies.
    Finally brethren, whatever is true, honorable, right pure….think on these things.
    We have the power to change our perspective. God won’t do it for you, you have to do it. Think on these things. Life is exciting and wonderful, not an arena filled with sickness and disease. Oh, it’s out there, but Jesus already took care of that.

  • James June 12, 2013 Reply

    I’m with Pietrosquared!
    Good comment. Thank you

  • James June 12, 2013 Reply

    Actually Grace is doing exactly what you want. If it weren’t it wouldn’t be grace, it would be compulsion, slavery, earning. Grace has no price tag. It Cost Jesus, everything, it cost me nothing.
    You have two choices in this life.
    You have the freedom to choose anything you want, absolutely anything. If you want slavery, bondage etc. you’ll can have it.
    But you cannot choose your consequences to that choice.
    If you choose slavery to an idea, religion, thoughts, actions then the consequences follow suit.
    A closed mind and heart are the consequences of fear, insecurity and fear.
    Alberto, I’ve read a hundred treaties on the subject. And the end result is precisely what I encounter: abstention of a feared behavior. Not freedom in Christ.
    I’ve been around this planet a long time and lived the results of this type of theology and it only brings angry, resentment not love and freedom.
    Alberto I sincerely appreciate your heart. But the bigger picture is so big that most Christians cannot wrap their hearts and minds around it.
    Grace is precisely the freedom to do whatever you want. If were anything else it wouldn’t be grace. Jesus warned the young man that He healed by saying don’t back into the thing I delivered you from. It was a warning, but NOT a continguency upon him being healed.
    We think grace is contingent upon whether or not I’ll be good, or do what’s right, or follow some code or path of certainty.
    Grace is a free gift. If you squander it, that’s all you have. If the talents teach us anything, it teaches that some will squander it, some will invest it wisely. But none the less it is for you to use.
    It’s on your shoulders not some preachers, churches, doctrine, theology to follow like a creed.
    I choose to live free of any expectations of God or man. God doesn’t expect me to do anything except to simply love Him. Anything beyond that is conditional.
    We yammer alot about unconditional love, in my experience the least examples of unconditonal love is in the church and by religious people. Their evaluation mode is upon performance not freedom in Christ.
    Bless you Albert in your journey.

    • Dave June 12, 2013 Reply

      Now who is changing the definition of grace? “Grace is doing exactly what you want?”

  • James June 12, 2013 Reply

    Right on Pietrosquared;
    You’re in the groove! Keep it there

  • James June 12, 2013 Reply

    You are overlooking the WHOLE words of God.
    You take one small passage, blow it out of proportion, stick a few Amercian interpretations, overlay your denominations interpretation and call it God’s Word.
    We are not dismissing God’s words (By the way it ain’t that book, it’s Jesus – He is the revealed LOGOS of God).
    We are taking the whole counsel not marginalized passages and calling the sum total.
    I’ve taught the Scriptures for over 50 years and it still continues to reveal areas I’ve missed it. And most of the areas I’ve missed it in, is in narrowing it’s broader picture.
    When your eyes are enlightened by the larger picture of Grace, forgiveness, freedom in Christ, anything else is all about performance and play acting. The struggle you feel in your heart isn’t love, it’s fear of what will happen if I don’t measure up.
    That’s not looking at the whole counsel of God.
    Blessings Alberto, and believe us, we’re not dismissing, we take very seriously the counsel of God, His Spirit and the example of Jesus.

  • James June 12, 2013 Reply

    Great Dave;
    You stick to your narrow, outmoded ways. And I’ll stick to the path of joy and excitement.
    If you interpreted my expository as anger, it’s far from it. I’m poking at you because I’ve been where you’re at and it’s a dead end.
    I choose to find out how to love those I fear and don’t understand.
    Continue to marginalized everyone and one day you’ll find you’re all alone.
    And that is what Paul called being a Nicholatian. We make the freedom of Christ have so many hoops, hurdles, and expectations that the only ones who can make are those who devised the cute little formula
    in the first place.
    You stick to your pulpit pounding of sin, and I will stick to calling people to a higher road of forgiving, loving, forbearing, challenging people to a life of joy.
    I’m not angry one bit! I’m excited because when my responses get this much attention, I know I’m poking at some sacred cows. And those cows need to be killed and sacrificed for the incense of praise and adoration to God who forgives all, FIRST, not after they’ve repented.
    Forgiveness means nothing after a sinner repents. That’s just him (sinner) agreeing with me. Forgiveness and grace is always out there before, or if no one responds.
    Just like I have grace for you Dave. I appreciate you, and would fight for your right and freedom to believe the way you do. But I can’t live there, I’ve been there and done that and it doesn’t work.
    And blaming the world for what it naturally is, isn’t the answer to this worlds delimma. Only the love of God employed in you and I will.
    One last issue on silence. If I never told you that I loved you, would you believe me if I told you later, you were the most beloved brother I know?
    You would call me a liar or at worst you’d have to say I never heard him say that, so how can I believe him.
    If you can’t argue from silence, then my statement would be totally false.
    Peole say and do what’s most important to them. Whether is was Jesus, Bach, President Roosevelt or myself.
    Blessings Dave, we’re in different places and that’s okay. And I do bless you.

  • Steve Long June 12, 2013 Reply

    James and Pietrosquared,
    If God’s grace is exactly as you have conceptualized it then why did Satan get punted out of Heaven? Sin is not seeing things God’s way and not really caring about it. That is also the basis for ‘Grace Rejected’. That is Satan’s M.O. So you are saying that God has two standards for His sentient creation?
    You are bold to speak so casually about what the Almighty one has spoken plainly about. You disregard Bible authorities and scriptural passages as though they were not written as though the Spirit of God was the penman. ALL scripture is inspired and as such it is ALL true. Not just the portion that agrees with your understanding of things.
    Grace is unmerited favor but for the Covenant to be fulfilled ( a meeting of the minds) God’s proffer must be accepted. The offer comes with strings attached. We no longer our own. We have been bought with a price.
    People who practice and continue in willful sin are denying the Covenant that made them God’s possession. If we are God’s possession then we are no longer our own to live and do as we please. People who do as they please have rejected grace.
    You two advocate an alien doctrine that is at odds with the term ‘New Testament’ (New Covenant). The New Covenant is a re-transfer of Ownership back to to the original owner and He has definite ideas about how He wants his possessions to function.

    • James June 12, 2013 Reply

      Actually your doctrine is totally foreign to N.T. understanding and application.
      Tell me why this world seems to despise Christianity?
      And why the early church was sought out by the masses to heal and give aide to the poor?
      The N.T. You read and interpret are two different worlds indeed.
      I’m hoping someday you’ll see it. Right now all you have is a belief system, empty of love and follow through of Jesus example.
      And I weep for you as well. Christians are too eager to jump on the band wagon of thinking it’s their job to point out sin. Wow, it doesn’t take a genius nor a spiritual sensitive person to see it. However it does take spiritual insight, love and maturity to see and not condemn but try to love and reconcile those folks to Jesus.
      And your reference to Satan, again mix and matching scripture to fit your agenda.
      And let me ask you why did Lucifer get kicked out of heaven????
      PRIDE!!! And that’s what I hear pride! You seem to know better because you don’t compromise “The Word”. Everytime we open our mouths to defend we compromise, in word and deed.
      And since when is sin higher and more important than the Love of God?
      Who made that rule? Is that what sets us apart from the rest of the world?
      Jesus said the world will know you are my dicisples if you have love for one another, not the love of pointing out sin.
      And one more, what did Jesus say in Revelations about the church in Ephesus. They were good at pointing out sin, and casting it out, judging it. But Jesus had this one thing against them…they lost their first love.
      If you’ve lost that or even make it second, it’s game over. That’s where we’re at. All we have left is pointing out sin, but no love in any of it.
      Blessings and I truly hope you have joy, abounding joy in all your labors.

    • james June 12, 2013 Reply

      You better believe it’s an alien doctrine because its more true to the real practice of Jesus. You’re absolutely 100% spot on. That dead doctrine that America has been passing off as orthodox or N.T. has been a contrivence of the authentic spirituality of Christs church.
      I’m proud to say its foreign and more and more believers are finding and leaving the twisted, man-made devices of the current dogma.
      Please read your words over and hear into it the works, and performance mentality. “How He wants his possessions to function”. Function how?
      The very fact that God is our center changes us. But unfortunately for most of you it has to meet your criteria. There’s no room for variance, difference. And when there is you label it as doing what you please.
      Too bad that most believers/Christians don’t get it. Once you’re in the process of changing and loving God, you pretty much can do what you please.
      You do anyway from buying the car you want, going to the church you want, dating the girl or guy you desire. So if your talking about handing all that over start with the little things in life: your daily agenda, job, time you wake up, the gym you go to for your 5am workout, the people you hang out with.
      “Grace is unmerited favor so you can fullfill the New Covenant”. AH!”And the offer has strings attached.” (Your words) Interesting this doesn’t sound like Unconditional love, it sounds like you better do what I say or your out!
      Wow, Steve! That’s bondage my friend. Get free from the angst of never quite knowing whether you’ve fullfilled the whole law or covenant. That must be a terrible load on your heart and mind to never quite know you’ve measured up.
      Love in Christ

  • Steve Long June 13, 2013 Reply

    Pride is the second graders answer. The correct answer is the middle letter, ‘I’. Let me be very clear; your doctrine is alien to the scripture. What you seem to be saying is that there is no problem with our flesh running the show and squeezing out the vote of our eternal nature. Your doctrine is clearly from Revelation chapter 2 and anyone who gives you lip service is headed for the ditch. Rev. 20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. 22 Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds. 24 But I say to you, the rest who are in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not known the deep things of Satan, as they call them—I place no other burden on you. James,
    Pride is the second graders answer. The middle letter is the real answer; ‘I’. Heaven is all about God and his wisdom not me or you and our wisdom. Your doctrine is not alien because it is from heaven but because you seem to teach that it is O.K. to let the flesh, which is temporary, dominate our eternal nature. It is clear that you two are the fellows that Peter warns us about in II Peter 2, But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

    4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men 8 (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority.
    The whole idea is to ask God for help out of temptation (verse 9), not to carelessly indulge (verse 10) in it waving your magic ‘grace’ wand. The choice for children of God is to live by the spirit and not the flesh because the flesh and it’s desire is passing away. Now James, if you do not want to let spirit manage flesh that is your own issue but to be a child of God Spirit gets to exercise authority over flesh. Anything else is actually slavery. The function of forgiveness and grace is to buy some time for us so that we can become better and better with this over time.The children of Israel escaped their slavery but what irked God about them is that they kept looking longingly back to it.
    This is the picture that circumcision presents. A piece of useless flesh is removed (and curiously near the male sex organ) to picture for us that our flesh is pretty darn useless for eternal things so we better get rid of it. In the Old Testament anyone who was not circumcised was cut off from the nation and the promises.
    It is pretty clear that you two are not reading the text and context of the others who have contributed here because you have not made any meaningful reply. You just want a pretext for sensual and disobedient conduct. Your words do not have life. What you say is foolishness.

    • Dave June 13, 2013 Reply

      Having just re-read all of this, I am wondering if James and Pietrosquared are the same person using two different logins. I am done with this one guys. Stick to God’s word and yes, keep working it our in the original languages. Blessings,

      • Alberto Medrano June 13, 2013 Reply

        Yeah, I’ve thought about too. What if it’s one guy. I’ve also been wondering if it’s just a troll doing this purposely. You know? Like some immature person who gets a kick at just poking at people. Haha. I mean, it has to, because they just don’t present any valid points, just “uh, you’re wrong. It’s all about love and grace, so yeah, I could do whatever I want, so, uh, yeah”. If it’s a real person who believes that scripture doesn’t hold any weight, of which includes the words of Jesus, I feel real bad for them and especially for others who may be deceived like them.

        • pietrosquared June 13, 2013 Reply

          I am not logging in under any other name. I don’t feel like I’m being immature either (Please, red my posts and show me my immature statements). I didn’t say you can do whatever you want. I merely corrected a wrong definition of a word… I believe in the Scriptures (In fact, I’m pretty conservative!). You have totally extrapolated what I might or might not believe based what appears to be an extremely judgmental attitude.

          We probably agree more than we disagree on the issue of homosexuality and the Bible, Alberto. What we don’t agree on is the meaning of grace. And we might not agree on what marks a person as a Christian, strangely enough.

          There are people who believe firmly in the Scriptures who totally agree with you (and with me) on this issue. You appear ready to cast them into the fires of hell. I am not so quick about that.

          • Alberto Medrano June 13, 2013

            Do you believe that homosexual behavior is a sin as stated in scripture? If not, please use scripture to show that homosexuality is not a sin. Rather than mere opinion, let’s use scripture as a basis for this dialogue regarding homosexual behavior.

  • Steve Long June 13, 2013 Reply

    I accept the explanation of your position. I agree that we all may differ somewhat on our understanding of the meanings and nuances of word. It is possible that you are not in lockstep thinking with James but your early defense of him made you vulnerable to being associated with all of his positions and they are extreme.

    James, I will reply to something you have written.
    You wrote this, ““Grace is unmerited favor so you can fullfill the New Covenant”. AH!”And the offer has strings attached.” (Your words) Interesting this doesn’t sound like Unconditional love, it sounds like you better do what I say or your out!”
    All parents love their children and unconditionally. What I said was conditional was grace. God is not an enabler. Your use of the word ‘grace’ paints God to be an enabler to the max. One does not have to work very hard to find places in scripture where God says ‘If’, a conditional word. Check this out in Deuteronomy 28. “Now it shall be, IF you diligently obey the Lord your God, being careful to do all His commandments which I command you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. 2 All these blessings will come upon you and overtake you if you [b]obey the Lord your God:”
    Isaiah 1, “18 “Come now, and let us reason together,”
    Says the Lord,
    “Though your sins are as scarlet,
    They will be as white as snow;
    Though they are red like crimson,
    They will be like wool.
    19 “IF you consent and obey,
    You will eat the best of the land;
    20 “But if you refuse and rebel,
    You will be devoured by the sword.”
    Truly, the mouth of the Lord has spoken.
    To receive God’s blessing he has some expectations.
    In the real world a young drivers who continue to get tickets soon finds that his parents will not let him stay on their insurance. The ‘IF’ is the condition that he keep a good driving record. Why should parents allow a reprobate driver besmirch their righteous driving record? God is just the ultimate parent. He wants us to be able to benefit from His righteous record so he lets us stay on His policy as long as long as He can tell that we really want to be a good driver. His advantage over a parent in the flesh is that He has the tools to do a heart check on us to discern our intentions. James your doctrine seems to say that intentions are irrelevant to God and so as I understand what you seem to be saying sanctification is just an annoying church word that you don’t want to be bothered by.

  • James June 14, 2013 Reply

    Hello Steve;
    Again, you guys mix apples and walnuts in your theology. You talk out of one side of your mouth about Grace, and the other you speak of expectations.
    Your comment about nullifying sanctification, which I’m understanding your meaning to say holiness or pure living.
    Wow, you twist it all around. If God WERE to expect perfection of you, you’re toast. We’re all toast. Any expection of God is so much high than man could ever achieve. Romans 1 & 2 is a case in point. The ways of God are so much higher than ours. Our puney effort to achieve moral perfection, and that’s most of what we’re talking about here is quit doing the 7 deadly sins and then you’re okay.
    Sanctification is a life long process and maturity. I hope you’ve grown from your younger years. Most of us would hope that we wouldn’t be judged on prior stupidity and passions of our youth. But santification isn’t for God it’s for US. God wants us to live a pure life so we don’t get aides, herpes, complications with multile marriages, debt etc.etc. It’s NOT a requirement of God to be HIS child. Every creation is HIS, nothing can separate us from His love (Rom. 8). Stop putting in your performance based theology. Read it with fresh eyes that God desires a relationship with us.
    Anything I do will always fall short of Him, it always has and always will.
    Your righteouness is filthy, sticky rags. Why? Because you think it’s really something God would love about you. The fact of matter He already loves you, but this separation thing had to be dealt with and Jesus did that for you.
    There’s nothing you can do to maintain it, make it, create it, fix it, hold on to it.
    The simplest way is to explain is our own children. There’s is nothing my children will do, or have done that will ever separate my love for them. And a couple of them have been to hell and back. But any desire for them as been for them, not an expectation of mine. Because if it were an expectation then it would not be for them it would be for me.

    You quote a litany of verses from the O.T. to prove your point. Wow, really? Bad example because those people were idoloters, foreigners, strangers to God. God’s covenant to them was simple, if you will be my people I will be your God.
    Those poor Jews didn’t have a clue how to live, but they knew one thing, with God it would be better. His stipulations were a teaching. If you are a teacher you know the difference between commanding someone and training them. If you’re not a teacher then let me teach you.
    Everything I do as a teacher (And I’ve been one for 30 years) is for my students. If I command them, it is to instruct them in more better way.
    If you do this, you get an “A”. You could that’s an expection. It’s not because the choice is there’s. If they follow through I have no other choice but to give them an “A”. If they don’t I have no choice but to give them an “F”. The difference is the grade isn’t about me, it’s about them.
    Unconditional love is always about the other person, it’s never about the one giving it. If there is any condition then it isn’t unconditional.
    Back to your santification issue. It’s my choice. I can choose to keep my pure and I will have the pleasureable consequences of freedom, peace, and sound judgement. If I choose otherwise then the consequences will be accordingly.
    Sanctification is setting yourself apart. For what? I set my self apart to grow, become strong in faith. For God? God doesn’t need my sanctification? I do! I need it! For heaven? No! Sanctification is for the here and now, to live in this life free from entanglements.
    You see God as expecting and having expectations. I see God not having any expectations because it’s foolish for him to have any because you could never measure up. Again read Romans 1, 2. Chapter 2 talks about God handing them over to their depraved minds. If you want a depraved mind, guess what God will let you have it. But if you want something else, something better you can have that also. That’s called freedom of choice. And if God doesn’t give you freedom of choice, then there is no freedom at all, ever!
    God’s unconditional love is seen best in that He doesn’t force you to do anything, nor does He play tricks on you by slapping you around when you make a mistake.
    The only thing slapping you around are the consequences of your poor choices.
    And there are plenty of people making poor choices out there, as you well know.
    But the answer isn’t expectations, it’s freedom, and allowing people to sense and realize the unconditional love of God.
    Jesus is our Savior because we couldn’t fulfill one jot or tittle of the law. You know that. It hasn’t changed with Jesus either. We still can’t and never will. Because the law Jesus fulfilled was fulfilled in love, not rules, expectations. You know this too well, Love covers a multitude of sins.
    Not all the expections you think your fulfilling, nor the works you think are earning you a closer place with God will never cover our sins. Only love!
    It is a battle of Semantics Steve, and it does depend on your perspective.
    You criticized me, in one of your comments, for just being around a long time doesn’t warrant my perspective valid. And I accept your criticism, but perhaps when you find your legalist form of “grace” doesn’t work you might be crying in the night asking God for a “better” understand His mysteries.
    I’m continually in awe of our Creator and renewed daily by my Saviors love. I enjoy the bantering and discussion. Iron sharpens iron and disagreement makes us take note of what we believe from what we really practice.
    Blessings my brother,

  • James June 14, 2013 Reply

    Actually Dave,
    James is me, and Pietrosquared is someone else.
    Boy are you guys paranoid. Whew!
    Discussions scriptures and content is really difficult because you have your theological minds made up.
    Great! Have fun winning the lost! It’s a tough road when people know their marginalized.
    This is James not “P”
    Yeah two people can have differing points of view who disagree with you.
    Mmm. Maybe you and Alberto are the same person?

  • Alberto Medrano June 14, 2013 Reply

    Wow. Here’s the same question I proposed, which I hope we can stick with.

    Do you believe that homosexual behavior is a sin as stated in scripture? If not, please use scripture to show that homosexuality is not a sin. Rather than mere opinion, let’s use scripture as a basis for this dialogue regarding homosexual behavior.

  • Steve Long June 15, 2013 Reply

    You mis-use the word legalism. I have been pretty careful about appending scriptural passages and making comments that draw out applications to my position. That is not legalism. If you are paying close attention there is even scripture wrapped up in some of the comments that I make. Legalism is when God says something and I not only add to His words but make my additions binding on others. I think that you are legalistic when you say that God is o.k. with ‘practised’ sin. You are introducing an addition to grace not found in scripture that nullifies the conditional nature of it and makes sanctification a pointless word.
    If a blind man grabs an elephant’s leg and declares that an elephant is very like a tree that does not make it so. With seeing eyes he would never make such a declaration. The passages that I have added previously are an attempt to show you that grace is not ‘the tree’ that you argue it is. The elephant has other parts and without knowledge of them you will not really know what an elephant is.
    The letters in the New Testament were written to followers of Jesus, not unbeleivers and one should ask why did John, the loving Apostle, make such a big deal about sin and it’s dangers when he wrote I John… Christians? If grace is unconditional (as you make your case to be) the subject of sin should be pointless for Christians.
    And then the Apostle Paul raises alarms about a young man who was shacking up with his stepmother in I Corinthians. “5 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. 2 You have become arrogant and have notmourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
    For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
    Look at Paul’s perscription. Do not let this practicing sinner remain in your midst. Let him go back into the enemy camp and remember what it was like to slave for Satan so that—and look at this—“his spirit MAY (not WILL) be saved in the day of our Lord Jesus.” Because of sin this young man’s future looked uncertain. Constructions like that in scripture wouldn’t bother one who sees grace as unconditional like you. You might even miss the Apostles fearful words because they don’t fit your conception of grace.
    Our tendency when we read things in scripture that contradict our conceptions and ideas is to gloss over them and leave them to work out later instead of making a brutal admission that we might not have things quite right. God is not schizophrenic so when ideas collide in scripture this is an indicator that we mis-understand something.
    Now you may say that describes me because I don’t see grace the way that you do but I have not nullified any scripture that you have cited (although you have not cited very much). I see scripture on grace as absolutely true but they are not to be understood in isolation from the rest of God’s word which is your preferred method because you accuse anyone who introduces scripture that contradict your personal assertions about grace as legalistic.
    Sex and sexuality are purely flesh. It is the animal part of us that allows for propagation. Our flesh (animal) nature is a gift if we put it to proper use but it becomes a curse when we operate it in a manner that is not governed by the spirit. Being sexually unfaithful to a spouse is as concering a sin as homosexuality is. PAUL SAYS THIS IN I Corinthans 6, “18 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.” Sexual sins are of a different class than other sins but that is not because they are more horrible. Hands down, what Hitler (and his henchmen) did is far more horrible. The class that sexual sins represent is those sins that involve a lot of body chemistry and so logical process play less of a role. You can consciously decide to be mean or stingy and those are spiritually selfish. But our sex chemisty starts cranking under our radar and if we don’t have a firm grip on what is righteous our chemisty nudges our thinkin into the wrong direction. Sexual sin is quietly subversive at the chemical level to righteous thinking processes.
    In church culture we have made delineation between which sexual sins are unacceptible and which are not. I do not see sexuality as different sets of behaviors but as a general set of urges that we choose the limits of and we can choose our own limits or those of our designer. That explains masturbation, S&M, sex within marriage, homosexuality, bestiality, pederasty, swinging, philandering etc. They are all expressions of an animal urge, but only one of them suggests external guidance is involved. The question to each of us is do we pick the expression or do we actively seek God’s advice on this subject.
    Eve’s encounter with the serpent is the clearest picture with the dilemma we are presented between our spiritual and flesh natures. God gave some spiritual direction and Satan provided a thinking error that Eve seized on to rationalize gratifying the desires of her flesh. Read that account in Genesis 3 and pay close attention to her thinking process.
    I mentioned God’s lack of grace to fallen angels in a previous post. Clearly conditions exist where grace is not appropriate otherwise these angels would have access to it too yet their eventual outcome is described in Revelation in excruciating detail. I am very curious about the ‘nuts and bolts’ of grace but I am very confident that grace, unlike God’s love, is very conditional so it is important for teachers of God’s things to understand the conditions so they can warn others…Llke the Apostles Paul and John have. This is not legalism. It is love.

  • Steve Long June 15, 2013 Reply

    This is why sanctification is such an important part of this discussion.

    When we allow or first disobedient thought to develop into action we ruin our ability to think and act like God, our daddy. We ruin our ability to fully understand God’s thinking much in the fashion that putting a crack in the mirror blemishes our reflection. As we think and act more willfully more cracks appear and pretty soon when we read God’s word his pure truth is marred and warped by thinking errors that run like cracks in a mirror. Pretty soon we can hardly see Him as he is. Even if we think we have Him down we do not because in certain areas we have willfully blinded ourselves. We cannot reverse the inability to see God just as polutted water cannot supply a pure drink.
    So here we are in misery, enslaved by bad tendencies and behaviors, and unable on our own to give sight to eyes that we have blinded and ears that we have deafened. There had better be something outside of us that can reverse the damage or we are hopelessly doomed.
    “While we were yet sinners Christ died for us.”
    So doom has been removed as a distraction. Now we have hope. Something still threatens this hope. I still cannot make righteous decisions and consistently choose righteous behavior. Although Christ’s sacrifice got us across the Red Sea so to speak, I cannot see the big picture so I long to go back to Egypt where I was a slave (to sin).
    God didn’t just intend to save us from doom. He also intends to save us from self wrecking thoughts and tendencies. He knows that on our own we cannot heal ourselves so He has given us His Spirit to “lead us in all righteousness”. We cannot repair the cracks. Santification is the process where God uses the Holy Spirit as the ‘glassman’ to repair the cracks, to restore a right attitude within us and to bring healing to our warped thinking. The Psalmist says “Createin me a clean heart O Lord and renew a right spirit in me. He is earnestly asking for sanctification from the hand of God.
    Our part in sanctification is the same one that a surgical nurse has with the surgeon. We hand God the surgical tools which are gotten by reading God’s word and meditating on them with the view of having them ready for use. As the surgical light of scripture falls on the patient medical issues come in to view. As we read scripture the light of God’s word reveals things to us that we did not know were problems. Then with our acquiescence the Surgeon does His work.
    James, your view of grace only covers the doom part but completely misses the sanctification part. Christ died so that we could be freed not only from the consequences of a cracked mirror but from the slavery to it’s blind behaviors too. What is the point of being saved if nothing in us or our thinking gets fixed? II Peter 2 says this very thing. “21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.” What does Peter mean when he says. “than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them?” See the word ‘commandment’ there. That is a ‘condition setting’ word. If you teach that teach grace as a unilaterally imposed contract that we just lap up the benefits of then you only teach half of the truth. Ephesians 2:8 has a condition to grace within it. Grace is offered but a certain response to it is required. The response may not be good deeds of sacrifice of animals but faith is certainly a deliberate choice and response on our part. “8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
    Faith is not just intellectual assent because even demons have that kind of faith. Where they go wrong is that their faith is not connected to obedience/submission to God and the form of grace that you advocate for is not connected to obedience either. Just because God says that He will give us grace for pooping our pants doesn’t mean that He wants us to feel comfortable to poop our pants until we die of old age. People who ‘practice’ sin (continue to deliberately poop their pants) are no longer under grace but under judgment. Hebrews 10; “26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? “
    James, this is not legalism. The words are from heaven and they are a warning. Notice the context for the word ‘sanctification’ in this passage connected to the words ‘Spirit of grace’, and the mention of ‘willful sin’ (the practice of it). You can use as much righteous indignation and name calling as you can muster but the way you present grace is only useful as a deception to people so they will not have any concern about ‘the cracked mirror’.

  • Paulette June 19, 2013 Reply

    You’re correct, if someone is not convicted about engaging in sin, they are NOT saved. It is that simple. The Holy Spirit will convict them. Seeking G-d will purify them. Anything else is not Biblical. So yes, this article is correct, they cannot be. Nor are people who continue to commit adultery or gossip or lie. If they are submitting to G-d,. they will be convicted and change even after the initial radical change that occurs the day they accept salvation and are cleansed.

  • Jeff Ruble July 4, 2013 Reply


  • Jeff Ruble July 4, 2013 Reply

    1st Corinthians 6:9-10

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