I agree with Professor Butler that we can’t just make a blanket statement that because of the removal of God from public schools, events such as the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting have taken place. Mike Huckabee did make a statement on his broadcast concerning evil being present in society as well. It was a reference to Governor Malloy who stated evil has visited this community. Evil is real. We cannot ignore it. We live in a fallen world. Personally, I believe a tragedy like this is call for the United States as a whole to repent, more than anything else. This idea applies to families, citizens, and individuals alike. We have spent too much time thinking we could take care of things by ourselves. I agree with Professor Butler that bipartisan legislation to ban assault rifles should start happening now. No private citizen needs an assault rifle. As a final point, prayer should not be limited to the individual. Pray for your municipality, your state, your govenor, and all the elected officials in government. God has given us authority over evil through Jesus Christ. We have an example in him. We do not have to just put up with evil. God has already provided for our defense. Ephesians 6:10-16
It is a slanderous message that is conveyed when any person says that God killed little ones as punishment for big people’s sins. Any one who claims to speak for God and says this is a false prophet. Jesus already died for big people’s sins so there is no more sacrifice needed. The correct one to lay responsibliity and blame on is Satan. He is the murderer and the deceiver.
Where did this come from. Listen closely to her WORDS and Ideas. She is a Secular Humanist!!!!!!!!!! End of story! Read the Psalms – The Lord delights in RIGHTEOUSNESS.
To assume a direct cause and effect relationship between our society and one particular evil act can be presumptuous. On the other hand read through 1 and 2 Kings in one sitting and the glaring reality of a society that turns from what is good, just and holy invites more evil becomes crystal clear. Everyone is assuming God has something to do with it but it is society that is writing the invitation and delivering it to the doors of hell. The less we rebuke evil through communion with God and the more we invite evil through wanton sin the more we are going to see evil events occur–both within us and in society. That is sound Biblical theology. To then extend that theology to the specific??? Not smart. Proverbs show us again and again that the general do not necessarily lead to the specific. Yet it is the prophets role to ask the question to society; could there be a connection? If so, we need to repent and turn back to God.
Achan sinned. He deliberately disobeyed a direct command. Next thing he knew, 36 of his fellow soldiers had died in battle. He was the reason. No responsible individual is saying that God judges little, innocent ones! The problem is that sin is never isolated; it spreads, and it has consequences. A dad doing illegal drugs–his kids get their hands on them. A mother committing adultery; her kids see it and suffer the trauma. We have no idea what our sin against God and others, is actually spreading to do and have impact on others. That is why God says no; He is trying to protect us, and our children. Read Deuteronomy chapter 28 and you will understand.
Hucabee ad Dobson are not saying God DID THIS. They are saying we have removed ourselves from His protection and these happen to a greater degree because we are ignoring God. They are right.
We as a Nation under God, were indeed blessed by God. Now we are a Nation under our own god. (In other words “OURSELVES).
Mister’s. Huckabee, and Dobson are merely pointing this out to a society that does not want to hear.
There is a clear difference between what this secularist, and Mr. H. and Mr. D. have said. If you haven’t yet listened to their real words, (Not what the biased news outlets have sound-bited them into), please give them a listen.
We are clearly in that period before The Great Tribulation, when God predicts that these things will indeed happen, more and more, And we have no one to blame, but ourselves.
Gen. 12:3 is very clear, “I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”
We have turned our backs upon God’s people, and we will be abandoned. This is not to say that God caused this Horrible tragedy.
God has also said in:
2 Chronicles 7:14 (NKJV)
14 “if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land”.
What are we waiting for?
If this is hate, and vitriol, I am not on that wavelength at all.
I have visited Dr. Dobson’s ‘shrine’ in Colorado Springs and I must say that the America they are speaking of is their America. God is being very gracious to our nation. He is calling for repentance and it is so subtle that most Christians can miss it. Most Christians feel the ends justify the means its alright to hate, commit adultery, dispise other people groups divorce etc, as long as you don’t have an abortion or are gay.
Most religious people only want two sins to be repented for in our nation. God is dealing with us on a deeper level. He wants us to repent for the things that are causing all the manifestations of sin in America. There has been rot for many years but in order to change we must indeed humble ourselves to know exactly what God is saying. We must not assume that two sins are the main cause of our nation going down. Our downfall probably starts with idolatry….
She’s full of bunk.
Sometimes we ministers explain things “badly”…and then sometimes people listen to what we’re saying “terribly”!
No, secular humanists and atheists do NOT have a better understanding of these kinds of tragedies than Christian ministers. I don’t think they’re listening to what we are really saying.
What I hear Dobson and Huckabee saying is this…
We consistently remove God and His principles from our culture and then when something bad happens…we want to say, “Why did God allow this?”
The answer is… God allowed it because WE allowed it.
A “man” shot and killed those children. A “man” who lived in a nation that is systematically removing “God consciousness” from it’s culture.
We kill our unborn by the millions, remove Gods commandments from our public places (and our minds), pervert our morality, sexuality and even suggest that we as “men” can redesign God’s covenant of marriage, allow incarcerated murderers to secure sex change operations paid for by public funds secured from our taxes, allow still more murderers to live free in our communities after serving short prison sentences, complain about a prayer said before a football game, etc., etc…and THEN we wonder why a “man” would have no more respect for morality or human life than to murder our innocents??
God doesn’t have to punish us these days.
He simply allows us to punish ourselves. It’s the law of sowing and reaping (er…a biblical concept).
A new national consciousness of God…a revival of biblical faith and relationship with God COULD reduce the amount of evil we have in our land. Evil will always be with us until Satan is ultimately and totally contained by God.
Until then, only the expansion of God’s Kingdom in the hearts of “men” can limit it’s destructive nature! God isn’t our problem…but He certainly is our solution.
Jesus came to make peace on earth possible…and his will toward men is good!
She, (Prof. Anthea Butler) has presented a well thought out response. I have noticed a lot of my evangelical friends on facebook qouting the constitution and not qouting the bible. Her statement was spot on and I have shared Prof. Butlers sentiments on my facebook account. I appreciate you bring this voice into the conversation. As Christians we are called to be reconciled to Christ and each other. It’s important to look at each facet that has been brought to light.
Ezekiel 5:11a “Therefore as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, because you have defiled my sanctuary with all your vile images and detestable practices, I myself will withdraw my favor.”
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.” -Jesus -
Matthew 23:37
This is my first attempt at posting anything about the tragic shootings. I have a few thoughts.
1) for the people here and in other places, using the Old Testament as an example is not going to lead to a clear answer. Simply put, the OT was and is meant to be applied to Israel directly and followers of God indirectly. Never America.
2) To the professor. To assume what you heard from people spouting the second amendment was also from right wingers fundamentalist with a bible in one hand and the constitution in the other is the same hyperbolic spew that Dobson, Huckabee and for that matter the Westbourough Baptist group are guilty of.
I use the constitution because as an American Citizen it has been provided for me to use. Not because I see it as divine, I do not, but because it is my right to use as a tax paying, law abiding, voting citizen.
3) Paul wrote in Romans 1 that when we (a people or person) reject the “Light = what God is revealing about himself” he takes his hands off and the end result is a society that lives in the consequences of their choice. Four of the saddest words in the bible… “God gave them over” This is what is happening in places all over the world. Does this relate directly to the tragic shootings? I am not so sure it does.
4) What was missing? Not so much from the video but from the airwaves. The church as a whole has squandered an opportunity to lead the nation in grief. We went form sadness to defensiveness but never showed our country and the world how to grieve. We should have called for a national day of silence and let Christians lead the way. We should have stopped and opened the doors to our churches in every city across this nation. We should have invited our neighbors into our homes, wept and wept and wept.. (weep with those who weep) No Christian leader called for this but many jumped into the God is getting us or gotta get those pesky riffles away from people or took god out of schools… In other words, we let the media give us our talking points and we ate them up like “turkish delight”
5) To decry this as the judgment of God on America for our rejection of Him os no better than to stand outside the funeral and say it in more hateful words like WBC.
6) Finally, I think that God is and has been weeping. He did not make us to die nor did he make us to take the lives of others. He made us to be like him… Give, preserve and protect life. He made LIFE and when it is lost he weeps. At the grave of his friend, Jesus wept. I imagine when Jesus saw death he ached because it was the opposite of what he created.
Turby, God does get angry but Leonard made made the apt case that when all those accusations were flying around via the prophets in the Old Testament they were mainly aimed at the Israelites who shoulda’ known better. They were to be the light of God to the nations around, NOT the accusers. Try raising a child using indictment and accusation as your main tool. Your kids will end up atheists because they can’t believe in an abusive God and that is what we do when we self-righteously tell people that THEIR sins resulted in the murder of innocents. Everyone who has contributed to this comment queue has sinned and will wrestle with sin all of their life. That is the log in my own eye. Turby, do you have a log in your eye too? I think we all do.
Things like this massacre cannot be explained away by the pious indictments of public figures. The cause is more disturbing and frightening. A powerful evil has been cast out of heaven and is in our midst. We don’t have a chance against him without Jesus. We need to run out of the Hills and fling ourselves at Jesus’s feet and beg Him to help us. That is our message to those who live in darkness.Come to Jesus. Jesus surely was angry but where and against whom? How about the Temple and against religious leaders. His tone and manner toward those who were trapped in sin was tender and merciful. When the demon possessed man came out of the hills Jesus did not bemoan the wickedness and the sin that would lead to demon possession. Instead he set about making right what was ruined. And what of the woman caught in adultery. She had the misfortune of being discovered by some members of Westboro Baptist. He just wrote in the dirt until they decided to leave her alone. (Probably began to write their own sins for public view). Jesus came as a light, not a judge.
“The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali,
By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles—
16 “The people who were sitting in darkness saw a great Light,
And those who were sitting in the land and shadow of death,
Upon them a Light dawned.”
and
If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
We were not to commanded to be judges of the world and probably because we are continuing our Saviors mission but we were told to walk as children of light.
…you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light.
Jesus did not come to save nations. He came to save people.The only nation that counts is the eternal one because all of the rest are going to be toast.
I know someday Jesus will come as Judge but until that day comes we should walk as children of light.
When values that are secular and without moral teaching, the society will pay for it. God in Rev. 3:20 was put outside the church, and God was standing at the door of the church and knocking on it. Many evangelicals use this as a method to say, “God is outside your heart right now,waiting to come in.” While that might be true, the context was in reference to a church. So if that can happen in a church, it certainly can happen in a society.
The nation of Israel constantly ebbed and flow in their spiritual vitality. Each time they praised God their nation was blessed. At times when they rejected him (or the king of Israel) they would be put into Babylonian bondage, or Egyptian bondage. God used those times to teach them to come back to worshipping the One True God.
Our nation has put God out of our normal activities. As a result, we see things happening that are a product of excluding God. “Thou shalt not murder.”
Families are responsible to teach their children the things of God.
Charles,
I’m not sure that your Revelation cite has any non-church application and not even as an analogy.The world is dark and chaotic and the Church is light. The problem here is that self appointed public figures keep making statements like ‘the world is dark and that is why little kids are massacred’. They focus on 2 issues, abortion and homosexuality as if when we fix those two things all of our problems will disappear. The problem is NOT in the world. They are behaving ‘on cue’, like people who are in the dark should. Our response; “Hey you’all them little ones got killed because you are in the dark. Jesus never used this method on a bully pulpit to the masses. When he confronted sin He did it personally and relationally… unless he was dealing with church folk. Then he brought out the whips and called names. Jesus didn’t make it hard for those in darkness to find Him but he was unfailingly hard on those who thought they were in the light and were full of accusation. He called them “Whitewashed tombs full of dead men’s bones.’ He said,” their father (was) the Devil.” He said they would travel far and wide to make a convert like them who was twice the son of hell as they were. This invective was aimed at the Jewish spiritual leaders, not the world. Why would this be? Because they were experts at pointing out darkness in others and they were full of cliche answers but no light came forth from them to attract others from the darkness. That is what Huckabee and Dobson are doing. They are saying pious words but those words are doing nothing to shine light on the issue. “They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. 5 But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.” They do not bring good news and healing, they bring accusation and condemnation and only aimed at the two sins that most followers of Jesus are not having problems with. In God’s church in the U.S divorce is rampant, pornography addiction and substance abuse are huge (alcohol and prescription meds, as will as the illegal stuff). Followers of Jesus leave work early when they can sneak out and don’t work as unto the Lord. We fudge on our taxes, we are unfaithful to our spouses we cheat on our resumes, we openly pass on lies in public forums about people from the other political party, we drive over the speed limit and curse the person who cuts us off in traffic. In short, there is NO LIGHT coming from us and yet we are all ready to mourn the part of darkness where abortion and homosexuality reside and completely gloss over the part of darkness that we live in. Todd’s posts actually reveal the depth of the chaos in what we call church. We have a log in our eye. Jesus’ recipe for helping the world was to first get the log out of our own eye. When that is done we will be well able to shine light on other issues in the darkness. Dobson and Huckabee please be quiet so that we can be ashamed of ourselves privately without antagonizing others to reject Jesus because our our hypocrisy.
These are hard words above, but they should cut right to the heart of all of us who want to keep stepping down the path of salvation… God calls us individually to examine ourselves and see if there is sin deep in our hearts. Once it is exposed, we repent and pray to move forward abiding in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Humility. This is a big one to learn, because Pride is our monster to overcome as Christians living here in America. I often witness those Christians around me that once they get a hold of the salvation message and in faith begin their walk, get involved in church, become active in church groups their learning of biblical principles slows down and becomes stagnant… They soon begin to follow preachers on television and the radio and become fixated on what stances these people take and soon after are hardened toward others who may know things that God is revealing that show these popular folk in the “spot-light” are truly missing the mark… And when you challenge them, you are quickly thrown to the side as being wrong because you’re not following the status quo on the Christian media outlets… One such example lays before us as a church… Christian leaders are stressing that we need to bring prayer and God back into schools, that this will bring healing from such tragedies as Sandy Hook, that certain liberal factions are to blame when in reality God sees his own beloved people pounding the table demanding the nation listen while just a few months ago these same “men and women of god” were trying to put an “anti-Christian” in power in the White House. Twenty-five million evangelical Christians followed this Voice and voted to do this. Their prayers were not answered. Is it possible that God sees something they don’t?
I think that the closer we get to believing that we have to “appease” God, the closer we are to caveman mentality. It’s not that far removed from thinking we have to sacrifice a virgin.
As for the tragedy at Newtown, I think it rains on the just and the unjust. I don’t think God’s pleasure or displeasure with America had anything to do with it.
We have political correctness and in the church we have “religious correctness”. Huckabee and Dobson are just saying what they know their followers want to hear. They want to make sure they are looked up to and given a pat on the back and hopefully a check or cash.
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She is closer to the truth than Dobson and Huckabee
I agree with Professor Butler that we can’t just make a blanket statement that because of the removal of God from public schools, events such as the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting have taken place. Mike Huckabee did make a statement on his broadcast concerning evil being present in society as well. It was a reference to Governor Malloy who stated evil has visited this community. Evil is real. We cannot ignore it. We live in a fallen world. Personally, I believe a tragedy like this is call for the United States as a whole to repent, more than anything else. This idea applies to families, citizens, and individuals alike. We have spent too much time thinking we could take care of things by ourselves. I agree with Professor Butler that bipartisan legislation to ban assault rifles should start happening now. No private citizen needs an assault rifle. As a final point, prayer should not be limited to the individual. Pray for your municipality, your state, your govenor, and all the elected officials in government. God has given us authority over evil through Jesus Christ. We have an example in him. We do not have to just put up with evil. God has already provided for our defense. Ephesians 6:10-16
It is a slanderous message that is conveyed when any person says that God killed little ones as punishment for big people’s sins. Any one who claims to speak for God and says this is a false prophet. Jesus already died for big people’s sins so there is no more sacrifice needed. The correct one to lay responsibliity and blame on is Satan. He is the murderer and the deceiver.
following her on twitter. Thanks for this.
Where did this come from. Listen closely to her WORDS and Ideas. She is a Secular Humanist!!!!!!!!!! End of story! Read the Psalms – The Lord delights in RIGHTEOUSNESS.
To assume a direct cause and effect relationship between our society and one particular evil act can be presumptuous. On the other hand read through 1 and 2 Kings in one sitting and the glaring reality of a society that turns from what is good, just and holy invites more evil becomes crystal clear. Everyone is assuming God has something to do with it but it is society that is writing the invitation and delivering it to the doors of hell. The less we rebuke evil through communion with God and the more we invite evil through wanton sin the more we are going to see evil events occur–both within us and in society. That is sound Biblical theology. To then extend that theology to the specific??? Not smart. Proverbs show us again and again that the general do not necessarily lead to the specific. Yet it is the prophets role to ask the question to society; could there be a connection? If so, we need to repent and turn back to God.
Well Said! Amen.
Achan sinned. He deliberately disobeyed a direct command. Next thing he knew, 36 of his fellow soldiers had died in battle. He was the reason. No responsible individual is saying that God judges little, innocent ones! The problem is that sin is never isolated; it spreads, and it has consequences. A dad doing illegal drugs–his kids get their hands on them. A mother committing adultery; her kids see it and suffer the trauma. We have no idea what our sin against God and others, is actually spreading to do and have impact on others. That is why God says no; He is trying to protect us, and our children. Read Deuteronomy chapter 28 and you will understand.
Hucabee ad Dobson are not saying God DID THIS. They are saying we have removed ourselves from His protection and these happen to a greater degree because we are ignoring God. They are right.
Right
Also, God is not PUNISHING anyone. These are consequences of ignoring God. We do these things to ourselves.
Agree
This is unmitigated bunk!
We as a Nation under God, were indeed blessed by God. Now we are a Nation under our own god. (In other words “OURSELVES).
Mister’s. Huckabee, and Dobson are merely pointing this out to a society that does not want to hear.
There is a clear difference between what this secularist, and Mr. H. and Mr. D. have said. If you haven’t yet listened to their real words, (Not what the biased news outlets have sound-bited them into), please give them a listen.
We are clearly in that period before The Great Tribulation, when God predicts that these things will indeed happen, more and more, And we have no one to blame, but ourselves.
Gen. 12:3 is very clear, “I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”
We have turned our backs upon God’s people, and we will be abandoned. This is not to say that God caused this Horrible tragedy.
God has also said in:
2 Chronicles 7:14 (NKJV)
14 “if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land”.
What are we waiting for?
If this is hate, and vitriol, I am not on that wavelength at all.
I have visited Dr. Dobson’s ‘shrine’ in Colorado Springs and I must say that the America they are speaking of is their America. God is being very gracious to our nation. He is calling for repentance and it is so subtle that most Christians can miss it. Most Christians feel the ends justify the means its alright to hate, commit adultery, dispise other people groups divorce etc, as long as you don’t have an abortion or are gay.
Most religious people only want two sins to be repented for in our nation. God is dealing with us on a deeper level. He wants us to repent for the things that are causing all the manifestations of sin in America. There has been rot for many years but in order to change we must indeed humble ourselves to know exactly what God is saying. We must not assume that two sins are the main cause of our nation going down. Our downfall probably starts with idolatry….
She’s full of bunk.
Sometimes we ministers explain things “badly”…and then sometimes people listen to what we’re saying “terribly”!
No, secular humanists and atheists do NOT have a better understanding of these kinds of tragedies than Christian ministers. I don’t think they’re listening to what we are really saying.
What I hear Dobson and Huckabee saying is this…
We consistently remove God and His principles from our culture and then when something bad happens…we want to say, “Why did God allow this?”
The answer is… God allowed it because WE allowed it.
A “man” shot and killed those children. A “man” who lived in a nation that is systematically removing “God consciousness” from it’s culture.
We kill our unborn by the millions, remove Gods commandments from our public places (and our minds), pervert our morality, sexuality and even suggest that we as “men” can redesign God’s covenant of marriage, allow incarcerated murderers to secure sex change operations paid for by public funds secured from our taxes, allow still more murderers to live free in our communities after serving short prison sentences, complain about a prayer said before a football game, etc., etc…and THEN we wonder why a “man” would have no more respect for morality or human life than to murder our innocents??
God doesn’t have to punish us these days.
He simply allows us to punish ourselves. It’s the law of sowing and reaping (er…a biblical concept).
A new national consciousness of God…a revival of biblical faith and relationship with God COULD reduce the amount of evil we have in our land. Evil will always be with us until Satan is ultimately and totally contained by God.
Until then, only the expansion of God’s Kingdom in the hearts of “men” can limit it’s destructive nature! God isn’t our problem…but He certainly is our solution.
Jesus came to make peace on earth possible…and his will toward men is good!
She, (Prof. Anthea Butler) has presented a well thought out response. I have noticed a lot of my evangelical friends on facebook qouting the constitution and not qouting the bible. Her statement was spot on and I have shared Prof. Butlers sentiments on my facebook account. I appreciate you bring this voice into the conversation. As Christians we are called to be reconciled to Christ and each other. It’s important to look at each facet that has been brought to light.
Ezekiel 5:11a “Therefore as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, because you have defiled my sanctuary with all your vile images and detestable practices, I myself will withdraw my favor.”
If God did it to Israel, why not America?
God did not write Ezekiel. Just wanted to point that out.
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.” -Jesus -
Matthew 23:37
This is my first attempt at posting anything about the tragic shootings. I have a few thoughts.
1) for the people here and in other places, using the Old Testament as an example is not going to lead to a clear answer. Simply put, the OT was and is meant to be applied to Israel directly and followers of God indirectly. Never America.
2) To the professor. To assume what you heard from people spouting the second amendment was also from right wingers fundamentalist with a bible in one hand and the constitution in the other is the same hyperbolic spew that Dobson, Huckabee and for that matter the Westbourough Baptist group are guilty of.
I use the constitution because as an American Citizen it has been provided for me to use. Not because I see it as divine, I do not, but because it is my right to use as a tax paying, law abiding, voting citizen.
3) Paul wrote in Romans 1 that when we (a people or person) reject the “Light = what God is revealing about himself” he takes his hands off and the end result is a society that lives in the consequences of their choice. Four of the saddest words in the bible… “God gave them over” This is what is happening in places all over the world. Does this relate directly to the tragic shootings? I am not so sure it does.
4) What was missing? Not so much from the video but from the airwaves. The church as a whole has squandered an opportunity to lead the nation in grief. We went form sadness to defensiveness but never showed our country and the world how to grieve. We should have called for a national day of silence and let Christians lead the way. We should have stopped and opened the doors to our churches in every city across this nation. We should have invited our neighbors into our homes, wept and wept and wept.. (weep with those who weep) No Christian leader called for this but many jumped into the God is getting us or gotta get those pesky riffles away from people or took god out of schools… In other words, we let the media give us our talking points and we ate them up like “turkish delight”
5) To decry this as the judgment of God on America for our rejection of Him os no better than to stand outside the funeral and say it in more hateful words like WBC.
6) Finally, I think that God is and has been weeping. He did not make us to die nor did he make us to take the lives of others. He made us to be like him… Give, preserve and protect life. He made LIFE and when it is lost he weeps. At the grave of his friend, Jesus wept. I imagine when Jesus saw death he ached because it was the opposite of what he created.
Sorry for the length of post… Go live well.
To many so called evangelicals refuse to discern Law from Gospel. Leonard is the Mr fell good guy, all love. God does get angry!
Turby,
that is ad homonym not an answer. You do not know is I am Mr.Feel good guy and all love at least deal with the post.
Turby, God does get angry but Leonard made made the apt case that when all those accusations were flying around via the prophets in the Old Testament they were mainly aimed at the Israelites who shoulda’ known better. They were to be the light of God to the nations around, NOT the accusers. Try raising a child using indictment and accusation as your main tool. Your kids will end up atheists because they can’t believe in an abusive God and that is what we do when we self-righteously tell people that THEIR sins resulted in the murder of innocents. Everyone who has contributed to this comment queue has sinned and will wrestle with sin all of their life. That is the log in my own eye. Turby, do you have a log in your eye too? I think we all do.
Things like this massacre cannot be explained away by the pious indictments of public figures. The cause is more disturbing and frightening. A powerful evil has been cast out of heaven and is in our midst. We don’t have a chance against him without Jesus. We need to run out of the Hills and fling ourselves at Jesus’s feet and beg Him to help us. That is our message to those who live in darkness.Come to Jesus. Jesus surely was angry but where and against whom? How about the Temple and against religious leaders. His tone and manner toward those who were trapped in sin was tender and merciful. When the demon possessed man came out of the hills Jesus did not bemoan the wickedness and the sin that would lead to demon possession. Instead he set about making right what was ruined. And what of the woman caught in adultery. She had the misfortune of being discovered by some members of Westboro Baptist. He just wrote in the dirt until they decided to leave her alone. (Probably began to write their own sins for public view). Jesus came as a light, not a judge.
“The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali,
By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles—
16 “The people who were sitting in darkness saw a great Light,
And those who were sitting in the land and shadow of death,
Upon them a Light dawned.”
and
If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
We were not to commanded to be judges of the world and probably because we are continuing our Saviors mission but we were told to walk as children of light.
…you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light.
Jesus did not come to save nations. He came to save people.The only nation that counts is the eternal one because all of the rest are going to be toast.
I know someday Jesus will come as Judge but until that day comes we should walk as children of light.
When values that are secular and without moral teaching, the society will pay for it. God in Rev. 3:20 was put outside the church, and God was standing at the door of the church and knocking on it. Many evangelicals use this as a method to say, “God is outside your heart right now,waiting to come in.” While that might be true, the context was in reference to a church. So if that can happen in a church, it certainly can happen in a society.
The nation of Israel constantly ebbed and flow in their spiritual vitality. Each time they praised God their nation was blessed. At times when they rejected him (or the king of Israel) they would be put into Babylonian bondage, or Egyptian bondage. God used those times to teach them to come back to worshipping the One True God.
Our nation has put God out of our normal activities. As a result, we see things happening that are a product of excluding God. “Thou shalt not murder.”
Families are responsible to teach their children the things of God.
Charles,
I’m not sure that your Revelation cite has any non-church application and not even as an analogy.The world is dark and chaotic and the Church is light. The problem here is that self appointed public figures keep making statements like ‘the world is dark and that is why little kids are massacred’. They focus on 2 issues, abortion and homosexuality as if when we fix those two things all of our problems will disappear. The problem is NOT in the world. They are behaving ‘on cue’, like people who are in the dark should. Our response; “Hey you’all them little ones got killed because you are in the dark. Jesus never used this method on a bully pulpit to the masses. When he confronted sin He did it personally and relationally… unless he was dealing with church folk. Then he brought out the whips and called names. Jesus didn’t make it hard for those in darkness to find Him but he was unfailingly hard on those who thought they were in the light and were full of accusation. He called them “Whitewashed tombs full of dead men’s bones.’ He said,” their father (was) the Devil.” He said they would travel far and wide to make a convert like them who was twice the son of hell as they were. This invective was aimed at the Jewish spiritual leaders, not the world. Why would this be? Because they were experts at pointing out darkness in others and they were full of cliche answers but no light came forth from them to attract others from the darkness. That is what Huckabee and Dobson are doing. They are saying pious words but those words are doing nothing to shine light on the issue. “They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. 5 But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.” They do not bring good news and healing, they bring accusation and condemnation and only aimed at the two sins that most followers of Jesus are not having problems with. In God’s church in the U.S divorce is rampant, pornography addiction and substance abuse are huge (alcohol and prescription meds, as will as the illegal stuff). Followers of Jesus leave work early when they can sneak out and don’t work as unto the Lord. We fudge on our taxes, we are unfaithful to our spouses we cheat on our resumes, we openly pass on lies in public forums about people from the other political party, we drive over the speed limit and curse the person who cuts us off in traffic. In short, there is NO LIGHT coming from us and yet we are all ready to mourn the part of darkness where abortion and homosexuality reside and completely gloss over the part of darkness that we live in. Todd’s posts actually reveal the depth of the chaos in what we call church. We have a log in our eye. Jesus’ recipe for helping the world was to first get the log out of our own eye. When that is done we will be well able to shine light on other issues in the darkness. Dobson and Huckabee please be quiet so that we can be ashamed of ourselves privately without antagonizing others to reject Jesus because our our hypocrisy.
These are hard words above, but they should cut right to the heart of all of us who want to keep stepping down the path of salvation… God calls us individually to examine ourselves and see if there is sin deep in our hearts. Once it is exposed, we repent and pray to move forward abiding in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Humility. This is a big one to learn, because Pride is our monster to overcome as Christians living here in America. I often witness those Christians around me that once they get a hold of the salvation message and in faith begin their walk, get involved in church, become active in church groups their learning of biblical principles slows down and becomes stagnant… They soon begin to follow preachers on television and the radio and become fixated on what stances these people take and soon after are hardened toward others who may know things that God is revealing that show these popular folk in the “spot-light” are truly missing the mark… And when you challenge them, you are quickly thrown to the side as being wrong because you’re not following the status quo on the Christian media outlets… One such example lays before us as a church… Christian leaders are stressing that we need to bring prayer and God back into schools, that this will bring healing from such tragedies as Sandy Hook, that certain liberal factions are to blame when in reality God sees his own beloved people pounding the table demanding the nation listen while just a few months ago these same “men and women of god” were trying to put an “anti-Christian” in power in the White House. Twenty-five million evangelical Christians followed this Voice and voted to do this. Their prayers were not answered. Is it possible that God sees something they don’t?
I think that the closer we get to believing that we have to “appease” God, the closer we are to caveman mentality. It’s not that far removed from thinking we have to sacrifice a virgin.
As for the tragedy at Newtown, I think it rains on the just and the unjust. I don’t think God’s pleasure or displeasure with America had anything to do with it.
From the time I was in elementary school (60s) I never heard one prayer in school. I DID hear one prayer at the beginning of each football game.
We have political correctness and in the church we have “religious correctness”. Huckabee and Dobson are just saying what they know their followers want to hear. They want to make sure they are looked up to and given a pat on the back and hopefully a check or cash.
Bad things happen. God is good.
We can speculate why bad things like the disgusting events at Sandy Hook happen but, in the end, we do not know for sure.
What we do know is that satan is a liar, and a murder… And what we do know is that God is our Creator and Savior.
It is ok and engaging to have these speculative debates; but we must remember that our understanding is limited.
The Good News is that we can see God at work in His wonderful ways throughout all of this. I wrote a post about it here
http://discipleday.com/2012/12/17/where-was-god-in-the-tragedy-at-sandy-hook-elementary/
If it is appropriate to post a link.
Merry Christmas – God is with Us!!